10/26/09
THE BEGINNING OF ME ACTUALLY PUTTING MY OWN WORDS INTO THIS BLOG
Elated and relieved, yet sad and deflated
1-30-10
10/30/09
Ebay Auction to raise legal defense funds for Scott Roeder By Dave Leach
Ebay Auction to raise legal defense funds for Scott Roeder By Dave Leach
Ebay Auction to raise legal defense funds for Scott Roeder
By Dave Leach
News, history, background, perspective
Our idea for an auction to raise money for Scott Roeder’s legal defense began August 27 with
my vain attempt to deflect a totally disrespectful comment from Don Spitz.
After recounting how I had edited errors in the Wikipedia entry about me, Don replied, “I'm
quite honored to know a famous person such as yourself. Maybe, someday, if the Lord wills, I can meet
you again face to face and obtain an official autograph, which I can then auction off on E-bay.”
Some day I would like to recount that story. For now, we will fast forward to November 2, the
150th anniversary of the last day of John Brown’s trial, when eBay pulled down our auction citing
violations of its vague policy, after a week of almost daily front page headlines about it.
My auction was up for 20 hours and 21 minutes, and eBay was looking for it but couldn’t find
it! That’s right, I posted it at 7:30 pm on the nose Sunday night, November 1, 2009, and about 11pm a
story went out about it in the Kansas City Star which described the items but didn’t say where to find it;
they didn’t pull it until 4:51 pm Monday, right after an AP story went out with one more clue where to
find it!
Specifically, I auctioned a catechism written by Michael Bray titled “The Faith Once
Delivered”. The Sunday night story called it only a “document of religious instruction” by a “convicted
clinic bomber”. The Monday story identified it as a “catechism” by “Bray”. Although I had spelled it
“B.r.a.y”. I auctioned what I called a “prolife Bible” owned by Shelley Shannon. Both articles only
mentioned a “Bible” and “Shannon”, but I had spelled it “S.h.a.n.n.o.n”. The Monday story, adding the
search word “catechism”, narrowed down their search.
Coincidence? That eBay pulled it 46 minutes after the second article? Surely! How could the
Google Search Gurus fail to find my auction, on their own site, within minutes?! Especially after a KC
Star story drew their attention to it! Surely the only reason they delayed so long was that they saw the
innocence of what I had posted, and the innocence of my intent explained in the accompanying article,
and reconsidered their fear that I was their enemy.
I had been hopeful.
But alas! Not so. Roxanne Hegeman of the AP told me eBay had asked HER for the link to my
auction! She didn’t give it, until she released her story containing it!
Options remain for us. Software is available to let us run our own auction. A couple of packages
I looked at are $400, and I imagine there will be a learning curve, so we’ll see. We have had enough
publicity, I think, to attract buyers. Especially if we do it soon.
In case is wondering, no, I am not such a “publicity hound” that I enjoy, and actively seek, news
coverage that feeds public misunderstanding of what I am doing.
But I have been pondering the “bad press” Jesus got from the Pharisees, and how He handled it,
and a strategy remains alive in my mind how to turn this all around into a public move to end abortion.
I explained a little in a post after the November 3 story announcing everything had been pulled down:
“When I explain to average citizens how judges in abortion prevention trials have gotten in the
habit of calling the fact issue of the nature of what Scott Roeder prevented a "question of law" which
juries are unqualified to know about, people are appropriately incredulous. "This is America", Scott's
ex wife Lindsey told Alan Colmes after I was on. "Of COURSE Scott will get his trial by jury."
“News stories haven't said much to explain the Necessity Defense yet, because Scott hasn't yet
declared publicly that he will use it. I am hopeful that will happen soon, the de fact denial or trial by
jury will be fully explained, and average people will understand and correct it.
True, we all know abortion has been "legal" for 37 years. What lawyers know but average
people have not been told, is what courts have done to our Constitutional Right to Trial By Jury all
these years to keep abortion "legal".
Do you think it is radical, extremist, hateful, bigoted, to ask that a jury be told the only
contested issue of a trial? I don't.
More info at saltshaker.us/Scott-Roeder-Resources.htm.
And yes, "cynical", you are right about eBay's double standard. They still have heavy sales of
"Hit Man", too. My auction stayed up 20 hours and 21 minutes because eBay's Google Gurus literally
couldn't find my site! I find that very hard to believe, but I know because they actually asked a reporter
for the link, and didn't take it down until its location was revealed in a story! No such excuse for "Hit
Man". That is very easy to find.
My letter to eBay about these inconsistencies, and appealing to them to let me work with them,
is at the above link.
With that introduction, let’s back up a week to the October 27 AP story saying eBay vowed to
shut us down. October 25, Sunday, Judy Thomas of the KC Star had broken the story about our plans
for an auction starting the following Sunday, November 1. Here is the October 27 story:
eBay: No auction for suspect in Kan. doc's death
By MARIA SUDEKUM FISHER, AP
Online retailer eBay said Tuesday it will block an auction planned to raise money for the man
charged with killing Kansas abortion provider George Tiller.
Supporters of the man had said that they wanted to raise money to pay for Scott Roeder's
defense. They planned to auction off items including an Army of God manual, an underground
publication for anti-abortion militants that describes ways to shut down clinics, including bombing.
Also on the auction list was a prison cookbook compiled by Shelley Shannon, the Oregon
woman who shot and wounded Tiller in 1993 and was later convicted in a series of abortion clinic
arsons and bombings.
"Based on the details we know about the anticipated listings, we believe these would violate our
policy regarding offensive material," eBay said in a statement.
If the items were posted, eBay said it would remove them from the online marketplace site
because the company "does not allow listings that promote or glorify violence, hate, racial or religious
intolerance.
"We do not allow items that encourage, promote or instruct others to engage in illegal activity
and will not be a platform for those who promote violence toward others," the company statement said.
Tiller had been the target of protests for most of the 36 years that he performed abortions at his
Wichita clinic, where he practiced as one of the nation's few providers of late-term abortions. He was
fatally shot in his church in May.
Roeder, 51, is charged with first-degree murder in Tiller's death and is being held without bond.
His trial has been scheduled for January.
Dave Leach, a Des Moines, Iowa, abortion opponent who was organizing the auction, said
Tuesday he had contacted eBay about what the auction would entail, and also to tell the company "that
we're not out for glorifying violence. We're wanting to get a man to his right by a trial by jury."
Leach questioned eBay's decision to stop the auction for Roeder, but said that the decision
doesn't surprise him. He said other projects are in the works to raise money for Roeder, who has been
appointed public defenders, but was considering hiring private lawyers.
"The items that we're thinking of marketing have historical value in the history of freedom of speech in
the pro-life movement," Leach said.
Here is a parallel story in the KC Star:
Posted on Tue, Oct. 27, 2009 Printed Oct 28, Front Page
EBay refuses benefit auction for Roeder
By JUDY L. THOMAS
The Kansas City Star
An eBay auction planned by abortion opponents to raise money for the man accused of killing
Wichita abortion doctor George Tiller will not be permitted, company officials said Tuesday.
“Based on the details we know about the anticipated listings, we believe these would violate our
policy regarding offensive material,” the company said in a statement to The Kansas City Star. “EBay
will not permit the items in question to be posted to the eBay site, and they will be removed if they are
posted.”
The announcement came the same day that Tiller’s family implored eBay to prevent the
auction.
“These materials contain hate messages, glorify violence against abortion doctors who provide
constitutionally protected medical services, and instruct on means of violence, including bombing, of
abortion clinics,” said Lee Thompson, an attorney for the Tiller family, in a letter sent to eBay on
Tuesday and approved by Tiller’s widow, Jeanne Tiller.
“We urge you to deny access to the resources of eBay for this reprehensible and vile
‘auction.’ ”
The auction was intended to raise money for the defense of Scott Roeder, who is charged with
first-degree murder in Tiller’s death and is scheduled to go on trial in January. Currently, Roeder is
being represented by public defenders.
Roeder’s supporters are encouraging him to use a “necessity defense,” saying that Tiller’s
killing on May 31 was an act of justifiable homicide. Other anti-abortion activists charged with violent
crimes have tried to use such a defense, but with little success.
Those working on the fundraiser said banning the auction was a violation of their rights.
“They’re not only chilling the First Amendment of the Constitution, they’re raping the whole
Constitution,” said Regina Dinwiddie, a Kansas City abortion opponent and friend of Roeder.
She said the move wouldn’t stop those who are trying to help Roeder.
“We have other plans that I’m not at the discretion to say right now,” she said. “This is money
for Scott Roeder so he can have a true defense. They’re trying to shoot down the truth of what went on
behind Tiller’s closed doors and fenced gates, but it’s not going to work.”
The controversy arose after an article in Sunday’s Star about the auction. Items being donated
included an Army of God manual, a prison cookbook compiled by a woman doing time for abortion
clinic bombings and arsons, and several autographed drawings submitted by Roeder.
One drawing was of David and Goliath that depicted David holding the head of Goliath and the
name “Tiller” on Goliath’s forehead. The words “child-murdering industry” were written on the corpse.
Dave Leach, an Iowa abortion opponent who was organizing the auction, planned to launch it
Sunday. He was donating a reprint of an Army of God manual, an underground publication that
describes dozens of ways to shut down abortion clinics, including bombing. Leach, who published the
manual in 1996 in his magazine, Prayer and Action News, said he would cover the pages containing
bomb recipes.
The prison recipes were being donated by Shelley Shannon, the Oregon woman who shot and
wounded Tiller in 1993 and later was convicted in a series of abortion clinic arsons and bombings.
Dinwiddie, who made headlines in 1995 when a federal judge ordered her to stop using a
bullhorn within 500 feet of abortion clinics, planned to donate an autographed bullhorn similar to those
she used when protesting.
Roeder’s ex-wife, Lindsey Roeder, said she was thrilled the auction was being rejected. She
said she contacted eBay on Monday to voice her concerns.
“I believe that this auction could incite more violence on abortion clinics and doctors,” she
wrote in an e-mail to eBay. “I do not believe that canceling this auction will in any way hinder Scott’s
right to an adequate defense, as he has a good team of public defenders.”
In his letter to eBay, Thompson said that any proceeds of the auction should go to the Kansas
Crime Victims Compensation Board. Such proceeds, he said, would come under the provision of the
Son of Sam law in Kansas, which was designed to keep those charged with crimes from profiting from
their actions.
It its statement, eBay said, “we do not allow items that encourage, promote, facilitate or instruct
others to engage in illegal activity and will not be a platform for those who promote violence toward
others.”
Leach said eBay’s policy was ambiguous.
“They won’t allow anything that glorifies violence, they say. Wasn’t World War II a bit
violent?” he said. “Doesn’t eBay do a brisk business in books and artifacts that glorify the U.S. role in
it? Isn’t the Bible sold on eBay? I can’t even imagine how eBay could rewrite its policy in a way that
targets us without targeting a huge slice of its customers.”
Inside
Mike Hendricks: Supporters see Scott Roeder as a modern John Brown | A4
To reach Judy L. Thomas, call 816-234-4334 or send e-mail to jthomas@kcstar.com.
Shelley Shannon, who has 9 more years to serve for shooting George Tiller in each arm in 1993,
commented in an email (prisoners are just now getting a very controlled access to emails; they must
pay ten cents a minute to use the computers):
“Yes, the [cookbook] cover is on the way to you, as of Mon. morning, I believe it was. It will
need to be copied, because I did some cut and paste with a previous cartoon. You'll see. And PLEASE
tell me you are typing the recipes and making a nice-looking booklet (?). I scribbled them out quickly,
as you could see, assuming you would make the book itself, so I hope so.
All's well here. Raining today, but supposed to snow tomorrow.
Almost sounds like the lawsuit could be more productive than if they let the auction happen.
Not right though. They caved to pro-abort pressure. It was funny to read the quotes from the pro-abort
in Judy Thomas' article. Didn't even fit. As though they had prewritten quotes to use when the media
asked for any. Weird.
By the way, Judy's article was the MO summary news that day in the USA Today.
Blessings to you, Shelley
Here is the article I posted on eBay with the Bible I auctioned, which Shelley had mailed to me
about 10 years ago. Notice the hyphens and periods I inserted so search engines, searching for those
words, could not easily find them. But honestly, I am still incredulous that these primitive steps held off
the Google search team for 20 minutes, much less 20 hours and 21 minutes! My only hope had been to
keep it up long enough that eBay’s policy makers and lawyers could see my article and reconsider their
fear that I am their enemy. Here’s the article:
Prolife Bible
Don't believe me. Believe God. This is the King James Version Bible owned by S.h.e.l.l.y
S.h.a.n.n.o.n until she sent it to me about 10 years ago when she was transferred from state to federal
prison. I have highlighted many verses in it which prolifers cite to show that conception is "when life
begins", at least in God's opinion. Bookmarks help you easily find each one. With the Bible is an article
listing the verses and explaining, in some cases, how the verses apply to the issue, or the meanings of
the words in the original language.
For example, did you know even Roe v. Wade cites a verse from Exodus? Would you like to
know how the Court justified genocide out of that verse?
The list of verses here, and comments about them, have been contributed by several prolife
activists. In fact, as this auction runs, I will invite prolife friends to contribute additional verses, with
explanations of their relevance. I also invite YOU to submit verses and discussion. Send to
Pilgrim@Saltshaker.US. The high bidder will receive the Bible and an article compiling all these
results.
“VIO-LENCE” IN THE BIBLE. The Bible provides a rational context for judging if and when
“vio-lence” is good or evil. Police are deliberately equipped and authorized to be vio-lent. Is it an
offense against reason and morality to glor-ify police? Kansas courts sometimes order the kil-ling of
kil-lers. Shall we censor those who respect Kansas courts?
The Bible agrees with police and Kansas courts that sometimes the vio-lent need to be violently
stopped. Police and courts agree with Ecclesiastes 3 that there is “a time to k.i.l.l, and a time to
heal; ...a time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.”
So how can comments after news articles be full of condemnation of the Bible because it glorifies
vio-lence, yet full of respect for police who exist for violence, and for courts which justify their
violence? These bloggers express so much rage against any appeal to the moral authority of the violence-
tainted Bible that you know many of them would vio-lently censor any mention of God were they
under one of the many governments around the world sympathetic with that goal.
This at first appears contradictory, but upon examination it proves merely hypocritical.
There is real disagreement between God and America’s police and courts. It is not over whether
vio-lence is sometimes just-ified, but it is over when it is just-ified.
God takes the position that ALL who kill the innocent need to be killed. Gen 9.6. God’s position
is that those who kill killers, through as legal a process as their government permits, are not criminals,
nor are they “avenging themselves”, but they are fulfilling God’s vengeance. Romans 12:19, Isaiah
63:4.
By contrast, human governments have, throughout history, given kil-lers open season on
selected groups of human beings, calling their slaughter “legal”, refusing to recognize it as a “harm”,
and prosecuting those who try to save them. This is where the positions of God and of human
governments part ways. This is what God promises to judge with the same degree of vio-lence which
the vio-lent have committed.
Therefore when people want to censor only that “vio-lence glor-ifying” speech which God
justifies, it should be obvious that their real target is that speech which glor-ifies God.
Not that God cares about glory, for His benefit. Who are we, that He should care what we think
of Him? Job 35:5-8. But God loves us, and hates what we do to ourselves by justifying genocide. He
invites us into Heaven. But if we are this comfortable with genocide all around us, how are we going to
be comfortable in Heaven where the very thought of the slightest unkindness would be an
abomination?
VIO-LENCE AND LOVE. If God loves all, why is it hard to grasp why Bible verses like Pro
24:10-12 would call us to rescue those being unjustly slaughtered? How can the innocent live, unless
those who murder them are stopped? Should we have no police? No courts? No laws?
Laws mean to protect good and restrain evil. It would be absurd for any law to expressly intend
great harm. Mark 3:4. In situations where enforcement of the letter of a law would cause harm, the
spirit of the law would be violated by enforcement, which is rightly suspended by the Ne-cess-ity Defense.
This is S.c.o.t.t R.o.e.d.e.r's defense. It would be absurd to interpret Roe v. Wade as expressly
intending genocide. Yet Roe said "the judiciary...is not in a position to speculate" on whether the
millions of unborn slain at its direction are human beings. Roe said if triers of fact determine that they
are, Roe should "collapse".
Lower courts violate Roe by deciding the fact question which Roe said no judge is qualified to
decide: the judges say they can't recognize abortion as harming human beings because it is "legal".
Besides that, judges decide this fact question by themselves, before the trial begins, and order
defendants not to say a word about their defense, and the only contested trial issue, to the jury, even
though they tell juries they are judges of the facts. Attorneys are used to this system, but most
Americans would not call this a "trial by jury". They would call it a "trial by a judge".
Nothing can be more illegal than what courts have done all these years to keep abortion "legal".
WHAT WE SUPPORT. Our goal is an end to vio-lence against abortionists, and against babies,
through restoring the Constitutional Right to Trial by Jury, even in abortion prevention cases. Proceeds
from this auction will be devoted to that end.
I can’t imagine anything more American than fund raising for an attorney to give a man his
right to a trial by an informed jury. American mailboxes are clogged with fund raising letters to pay
attorneys. The ACLU sends out a fund raising letter so they can afford to sue somebody for putting up a
Christmas tree. The ACLJ sends out a fund raising letter so they can afford to oppose the ACLU. That’s
the American system.
I can’t imagine anything more unAmerican than any move by anyone to censor such an effort. I
would be less surprised by a move like that in Communist China.
That last allusion, for those who don’t follow Google news, is that Google has taken public
relations heat, although not nearly enough, for readily acceding to Communist China’s rules for
censoring Christian content, critical comment, and much more from its search engine results
throughout China.
Here is my brief description of Mike Bray’s Catechism which I likewise posted: (It was mostly
written by him):
This Catechism was written by Mike B.r.a.y after a court judgment against him by Planned
Barrenhood (PP v. ACLA, 1995), for publishing a book, entitled PB to his “writings, published and
unpublished.” However, PB has done little with its seized books, being unwilling to sell them, or to
credit B.r.a.y’s judgment for their value. In fact, on October 14, Bray filed a lawsuit against PB for
seizing more than Ohio law allowed, and then for not returning them when ordered by the court. The
copy for auction, donated by him, is one of 500 printed in the city of his residence, Wilmington, Ohio.
It summarizes the doctrines taught to children of Reformation Lutheran Church for 19 years. It used to
instruct his remaining at-home children. The copy for sale is signed by its author, A.r.m.y of God
activist Don S.p.i.t.z, A.r.m.y of God man-ual (reprint) publisher, Dave L.e.a.c.h, and the original F A C
E defendant Re-gin-a Din-wid-die. It deals with traditional church doctrines. It briefly mentions
abortion, looking to the day when it will once again be illegal.
For background information about the purpose of this auction, see the article with the Prolife
Bible just posted.
I was still hopeful when I emailed Shelley Shannon at noon Monday. I wrote:
I posted your Bible, that you sent me about 10 years ago, last night at 7:30pm sharp. Along with
it I posted Mike Bray's catechism. So far, even though eBay has vowed to take it down immediately, it's
still up, even though last night about 11pm Judy Thomas put her story about it online. However, a
separate auction, arranged by Regina, which posted all the incendiary stuff, was taken down an hour
ago. The first of the items had been posted about 9pm.
I can only hope the reason eBay has not taken mine down is that they see the innocence of the
items, and the innocence of my intent in the accompanying article, and are reconsidering their concern
that I am their enemy.
Here is the article I posted alongside your Bible: (It's long, if my audience were bidders; but my
audience was eBay attorneys.) (Article not repeated here)
Here’s the KC Star article announcing the auction had started:
Posted on Sun, Nov. 01, 2009
EBay auction to benefit Roeder defense
proceeds
By JUDY L. THOMAS
The Kansas City Star
An eBay auction to raise money for the man charged with killing a Wichita abortion doctor
launched Sunday night despite eBay’s pledge to nix it.
But organizers posted items that were less contentious than those they’d originally planned to
sell, and they used spellings that make searches difficult.
“I really am hopeful that eBay can see that once this is up, that it is not a glorification of
violence,” said auction organizer Dave Leach, an abortion opponent from Iowa. “If the auction stays
up, it will only be because eBay has been shamed into recognizing the nonviolent nature of the items.”
EBay officials were not available Sunday for comment. But last week, they said the proposed
listings violated the company’s policy regarding offensive material.
“We do not oppose all listings that raise money for legal defense funds,” said Jack Christin Jr.,
eBay’s associate general counsel for government relations, in a Friday statement. “However, our policy
does not permit listings that benefit someone charged with or convicted of a crime.”
The auction was planned as a fundraiser for the defense of Scott Roeder, the Kansas City man
charged in the May 31 shooting death of late-term abortion provider George Tiller. Roeder’s supporters
want him to hire an attorney other than his public defenders in order to use a “necessity defense,”
saying that Tiller’s killing was an act of justifiable homicide.
Items organizers said were being donated for the auction include several drawings submitted by
Roeder; an Army of God manual that describes dozens of ways to shut down abortion clinics; and a
prison cookbook compiled by Shelley Shannon, who shot Tiller in 1993 and is serving time for clinic
arsons and bombings.
On Sunday, however, the only items listed were a document of religious instruction written by a
convicted clinic bomber and a Bible that belonged to Shannon.
“It has all the pro-life passages highlighted,” Leach said of the Bible.
Comments as of 6:54 am Monday, November 2 after Judy Thomas’ Kansas City Star story about 11pm
Sunday night (online) that announced the auction had started:
KCComments wrote on 11/1/2009 11:51:30 PM: E-Bay was probably afraid of a lawsuit from
Roeders supporters. It would not surprise me if the ACLU stepped in if e-bay nixed the auction. If they
decided to shut down the auction I don't think people would blame them and it would not hurt their
business. But the cost to fight a lawsuit costs money.
sonoflaw wrote on 11/2/2009 12:58:43 AM: Pretty sad Ebay fell to the ignorance of a group
that protest killing, but support one of their own for murder. No wonder Lenny Bruce said, "More
people are going to God, than church."
DaveLeach wrote on 11/2/2009 1:02:51 AM: I wish I could see these "company statements".
Tuesday it was "...our policy regarding offensive material,,,does not allow listings that promote or
glorify violence, hate, racial or religious intolerance. We do not allow items that encourage, promote or
instruct others to engage in illegal activity and will not be a platform for those who promote violence
toward others." I responded that World War II was violent; will eBay censor items honoring our role in
it? Friday it was "We do not oppose all listings that raise money for legal defense funds... However, our
policy does not permit listings that benefit someone charged with or convicted of a crime.” So if we
succeed in our goal of trial by an informed jury for Roeder - a jury from which the judge does not hide
Roeder's defense, and the only contested issue of the trial, that is a goal which eBay will obstruct using
its vast censorship powers? eBay doesn't like the American court system? eBay maybe prefers Chinese
judges and censors?
Skeptic wrote on 11/2/2009 1:11:45 AM: eBay is perfectly within its rights to shut down the
auction. They have a great many rules and if they're not followed, they can pull any posting and
suspend or cancel any user account.
This is only a publicity stunt, after all, by misfits and zealots, the American Taliban, who once
again get unearned space in the nation's papers by doing something obscene.
jayhawk6 wrote on 11/2/2009 1:23:37 AM: ebay's explanation is doublespeak.
The Leach-Dinwiddie army of demented Christian soldiers got something for their efforts but just how
much money they ultimately raise remains to be seen. This has been a publicity stunt, pure and simple.
hajkar wrote on 11/2/2009 6:26:07 AM: I wouldn't be so quick to condemn e-bay. THese
morons launched their auctions like thieves in the night. By their own admission, they carefully used
words that make the items hard to find. In fact, my efforts to locate these items came up with nothing.
And Dave Leach is still trying to convince us of the parallels of WWII memorabilia and the trash he is
trying to sell. The man's actions are as fraudulent as his logic. Moron.
Monday morning about 10 am I talked to Roxanne Hegeman, Associated Press, and made a few
notes on just a few of the things I said:
“Ebay’s statement Friday says a mother can’t sell her son’s car to raise money for his lawyer to
fight a misdemeanor. That’s silly.”
Roxanne asked, “but this is murder.”
I said, “ebay can’t draw the line at the seriousness of the crime, saying they support a trial by
jury for less serious crimes but oppose trial by an informed jury for more serious crimes. All we are
asking is for Scott’s jury to have meaningful participation in his trial. That’s not a fanatic, fringe,
radical thing to ask.
“America’s mailboxes are clogged with fundraising appeals for attorneys to fight landmark
cases where people have been accused falsely, or accused honestly of things which shouldn’t be crimes.
Like where BATF agents barge into an Arizona farm house and terrorize the occupants and carry off
records, allegedly for drug suspicions but probably over cattle rights. We raise money for lawyers to
fight each other all the time. That’s what America is all about. (That got a chuckle from her.)
“Ebay is struggling right now to craft a statement that applies to us without also applying to
thousands of others whose censorship would disgust average Americans.”
The following is kind of a note to myself. It is where Tiller’s own attorney confirms that judges
will not allow juries in abortion prevention trials to know the only contested issue. Later I include this
statement in my letter to eBay. Here I just highlight it and marvel:
Thompson told Rachel Maddow last Monday, October 26, on MSNBC, "They say the
fundraiser is to hire an attorney to advance what's called the Necessity Defense, a
justification for some violent act. But that's been routinely rejected by virtually every court, and
it's certainly been rejected by the Supreme Court of Kansas. Which in 1993, and in an
abortion case, said to permit such a defense would invite chaos and perhaps could lead
ultimately to anarchy. So I can't imagine that any judge sitting in Wichita Kansas would go
against the Kansas Supreme Court on that issue."
Here is the AP story Monday, at 3:05 Iowa time, which gave eBay another clue where to find
my auction, which they then officially pulled down 46 minutes later.
AP, reprinted on comcast.net
Ebay removes anti-abortion memorabilia from site
Mon Nov 2, 2:05 PM EST
Online auction house eBay says it has begun removing several items put up for sale by antiabortion
activists trying to raise funds for the man accused of killing a Kansas abortion provider.
The San Jose, Calif. company said Monday the items violated its listing policies.
Activists say at least 10 items were removed. But some items from supporters of Scott Roeder
could still be found on eBay as of Monday afternoon. Roeder is charged in the May 31 fatal shooting of
Dr. George Tiller in his Wichita church.
One of the items still up for sale was a worn Bible that had belonged to Shelley Shannon, an
Oregon woman who shot and wounded Tiller in 1993.
Roeder's supporters say they were putting the items on eBay to raise money for his defense.
Here is the Wichita Eagle version,
Wichita Eagle:
WICHITA, Kan. - Online auction house eBay said it has begun taking down several items of
anti-abortion memorabilia posted to raise funds for the man accused of killing a Kansas abortion
doctor. The company said Monday the items violated its listing policies. Some of the more obscure
items were still posted early Monday. One is a worn Bible once owned by Shelley Shannon, the Oregon
woman who shot and wounded Dr. George Tiller in 1993 and was later convicted in a series of abortion
clinic arsons and bombings. The other is a signed Catechism written by Ohio anti-abortion activist
Michael Bray after a court judgment against him. Scott Roeder is charged in the May 31 shooting of
Tiller at a Wichita church he attended.
Read more:
http://www.kansas.com/topstories/story/1037464.html?
story_link=email_msg#ixzz0Vk5V2GMB
Wichita Eagle Posted on Tue, Nov. 03, 2009
EBay pulls auctions to benefit Roeder
BY ROXANA HEGEMAN
Associated Press
Online auction house eBay has removed items that were posted for sale by abortion opponents
trying to raise money for the defense of a man accused of killing George Tiller, the company said
Monday.Supporters of Scott Roeder posted various items late Sunday in separate eBay auctions,
including an Army of God manual, an underground publication for anti-abortion militants that
describes ways to shut down clinics.
After about five hours, eBay removed 10 items, abortion opponents said. The final two items
were removed by late Monday afternoon.
EBay said the anti-abortion memorabilia violated its listing polices.
"Today, eBay removed several listings on our site that violated several of our policies including
our offensive materials' policy. This policy prohibits items that promote or glorify hatred, violence,
racial, sexual, or religious intolerance, or promote organizations with such views," eBay said in a
statement.
Roeder is charged with first-degree murder and aggravated assault in the May 31 shooting of
Tiller at his Wichita church. Abortion opponents are trying to raise money for Roeder, who was
appointed public defenders but is considering hiring private lawyers. He has pleaded not guilty to the
charges.A mong the last items removed from eBay was a worn Bible once owned by Shelley Shannon,
an Oregon woman who shot and wounded Tiller in 1993 and was later convicted in a series of abortion
clinic arsons and bombings. The other was a signed book of religious teachings written by Ohio
abortion opponent Michael Bray.
Those two items were posted by Iowa activist Dave Leach. In the description of the Bible,
which had 13 bidders and a high bid of approximately $60 before it was taken down, Leach wrote that
Shannon had given it to him a decade ago when she was transferred from state to federal prison.
"Our goal is an end to vio-lence against abortionists, and against babies, through restoring the
Constitutional Right to Trial by Jury, even in abortion prevention cases. Proceeds from this auction will
be devoted to that end," the listing said.
Roeder's supporters said they want jurors to hear the so-called necessity defense, which claims
the killing was necessary to prevent a greater harm like abortion.
"This whole thing is a censorship," Leach said after his postings were taken down. "The judge
censors the defense from the jury and here is eBay censoring our efforts to try to end this censorship."
Kansas City abortion opponent Regina Dinwiddie said the 10 items she posted raised several
hundred dollars from at least a dozen bidders before eBay removed them. She vowed Roeder's
supporters will continue to try to raise funds for his defense.
"I am very disappointed in eBay," Dinwiddie said. "I thought that was the last bastion of free
enterprise in America with no political viewpoint, but I see I was mistaken about that."
She said other removed items included three drawings commissioned by Roeder in jail and
signed by him, a prison cookbook written by Shannon, several anti-abortion books and bumper
stickers, and an oil painting by Clayton Waagner, the man who sent hundred of anthrax scare letters to
abortion providers in 2001.
Comments:
HonestObserver wrote on 11/3/2009 6:22:37 AM: Hate sells or the Eagle wouldn't be picking
this scab.
Cynical wrote on 11/3/2009 7:00:04 AM: Why does ebay continue to sell books from a
convicted murderer that is still in prison? Seems like a double standard
Mr_Obvious wrote on 11/3/2009 8:06:59 AM: Why does the Eagle continue to milk this story?
They know these kinds of stories will provoke some ill feelings.
Calvin43 wrote on 11/3/2009 8:19:02 AM: Remember: There was once a time when John
Brown of Osawatomie was denounced as a murder and madman. He was hung for inciting rebellion
against a government that sanctioned slavery. Today, John Brown is honored and revered as a soldier of
freedom for those unable to defend themselves. Who knows what tomorrow will bring? The day may
not be far distant when today's opponents of abortion are equally honored and revered as the defenders
of young life over death.
DaveLeach wrote on 11/3/2009 8:26:16 AM: When I explain to average citizens how judges in
abortion prevention trials have gotten in the habit of calling the fact issue of the nature of what Scott
Roeder prevented a "question of law" which juries are unqualified to know about, people are
appropriately incredulous. "This is America", Scott's ex wife Lindsey told Alan Colmes after I was on.
"Of COURSE Scott will get his trial by jury."
News stories haven't said much to explain the Necessity Defense yet, because Scott hasn't yet
declared publicly that he will use it. I am hopeful that will happen soon, the de fact denial or trial by
jury will be fully explained, and average people will understand and correct it.
True, we all know abortion has been "legal" for 37 years. What lawyers know but average
people have not been told, is what courts have done to our Constitutional Right to Trial By Jury all
these years to keep abortion "legal".
DaveLeach wrote on 11/3/2009 8:33:44 AM:
(Cont'd) Do you think it is radical, extremist, hateful, bigoted, to ask that a jury be told the only
contested issue of a trial? I don't.
More info at saltshaker.us/Scott-Roeder-Resources.htm.
And yes, "cynical", you are right about eBay's double standard. They still have heavy sales of
"Hit Man", too. My auction stayed up 20 hours and 21 minutes because eBay's Google Gurus literally
couldn't find my site! I find that very hard to believe, but I know because they actually asked a reporter
for the link, and didn't take it down until its location was revealed in a story! No such excuse for "Hit
Man". That is very easy to find.
My letter to eBay about these inconsistencies, and appealing to them to let me work with them,
is at the above link.
(I also posted these comments after the following parallel story by Judy Thomas:)
Kansas City Star
Ebay blocks Roeder auction
By JUDY L. THOMAS
The Kansas City Star
An online auction to raise money for the Kansas City man charged with killing a Wichita
abortion doctor was short-lived.
EBay took down most of the auction items Monday within hours of the listings being posted.
“They said we had violated their rules,” said Regina Dinwiddie, one of the auction organizers.
“This is egregious censorship with pro-abortion bias.”
On Monday, eBay released a short statement:
“Today, eBay removed several listings on our site that violated several of our policies including
our offensive materials policy. This policy prohibits items that promote or glorify hatred, violence,
racial, sexual, or religious intolerance, or promote organizations with such views.”
Auction organizers posted the items Sunday night and early Monday under two listings.
Dinwiddie’s listing contained 10 items, including several drawings submitted by Tiller’s accused killer,
Scott Roeder; an Army of God manual that describes dozens of ways to shut down abortion clinics; and
a prison cookbook compiled by Shelley Shannon, who shot Tiller in 1993 and is serving time for clinic
arsons.
But organizers also posted two items that were less controversial under a different listing — a
Bible that belonged to Shannon and a Catechism written by Michael Bray, an abortion foe who served
time in prison in the 1980s for a series of clinic bombings.
Those items were pulled about 4 p.m. Monday.
Dinwiddie said her listings were removed within six hours.
In an e-mail to Dinwiddie, the company categorized the items as “murderabilia.”
“We don’t allow items that are closely associated with individuals convicted of a violent felony
to be listed on eBay,” the e-mail said. “Such items can be deeply offensive to the families of victims.”
To reach Judy L. Thomas, call 816-234-4334.
Perhaps the greatest tragedy, which I trust God to work through, was that on Monday I spent 5
hours drafting a letter to eBay appealing to their sense of reason, and for an opportunity to work with
them. Mike Bray commented on my letter when I sent him a copy: “Well, you kicked their hind ends,
Dave, albeit in unabridged form.”
The double purpose of the letter was to give AP reporter Roxanne Hegeman a response to
eBay’s policy decision. I finally got the letter finished at emailed to Roxanne at 2:39 pm.
(Remember that 3:05 pm was the time Roxanne’s article was published on Comcast.net. 3:51
pm – Iowa time – was when eBay pulled my auction.)
It was not until I talked to Roxanne about 5 pm that I found out she never received it!
My email server, Iowalink.com, had suffered a spam attack of half a million spams routed
through its server, on Sunday, October 25, the day the auction story broke. A week later they were still
cleaning up the mess. Iowalink guru Dave Payer had told me the previous night he would route the AP
address safely in another way, but I guess it didn’t work.
I am still hopeful that Roxanne has forwarded it to eBay as I had requested, and that eBay will
think about it.
Remember that November 2 was the 150th anniversary of the last day of John Brown’s trial.
Here is my letter:
2:39 pm, Monday, November 2
Sirs,
I am encouraged that although you surely must know where my site is by now, you haven't yet
shut it down. (As of 2:38 pm Monday). (I am not talking about the auction posted by mission.for.life,
which you pulled.)
I hope that is because you have considered the innocence of what I am posting, and the
innocence of my intent explained in the accompanying article, and you are reconsidering your fear that
I am your enemy.
(Friends have wondered if you just haven't found it yet, but I give your Google search gurus
more credit than that, whom you surely had assigned to the task, considering the determination you
expressed to shut it down. Surely you found it within minutes.)
I would be willing to communicate directly, instead of in an open letter through a reporter, but I
don't know how. I gave my contact info to Alina Piacentino last week, who said she would have
someone call me, but I haven't heard back except through reporters. I told Alina I wanted to work as
closely with eBay as possible to post in conformity with your policies in a way that would ruffle the
fewest possible feathers.
According to news stories, your Tuesday statement to reporters referenced your general policy
that "We don’t allow items that promote or glorify...or promote organizations with such views.
We’ll...remove listings...unless they have substantial...political value."
When I read that some time ago, I could not pinpoint the line drawn by those words. You sell
World War II stuff, which "glorifies" our role in it. You do not censor things which honor police, who
exist for their capacity for judicious violence. So it seems to me that your statement cannot be made
sense of, without a common sense appeal to the context of violence.
I hope the article I posted with our Bible has assured you that our project has nothing to do with
"promoting or glorifying violence". It is all about moving judges in abortion prevention trials to stop
censoring the only trial issue, and the only defense, from the hearing of the jury. Does that sound to you
like a fanatical, extremist, violence-glorifying, radical goal?
My assertion that it is routine for juries in such cases to have no meaningful participation in
them should not seem controversial. Lee Thompson, the attorney for George Tiller who persuaded you
to censor me, agrees with me.
Thompson told Rachel Maddow last Monday, October 26, on MSNBC, "They say the
fundraiser is to hire an attorney to advance what's called the Necessity Defense, a justification for some
violent act. But that's been routinely rejected by virtually every court, and it's certainly been rejected by
the Supreme Court of Kansas. ...So I can't imagine that any judge sitting in Wichita Kansas would go
against the Kansas Supreme Court on that issue." (I'll send the video if you want to hear it.)
Neither can I. So, add that knowledge (that it is inconceivable that the judge will allow the jury
to know about the defense) to the fact that there is no other issue in the trial about which the parties
disagree - the defendant does not seriously dispute the charges against what he did - and we see that the
only contested issue of the trial is expected by every lawyer to be decided before the trial begins. In
fact, probably by December 13, when the hearing is scheduled on that issue.
Do you think when a judge classifies the only trial issue as a "question of law" about which the
defendant may not speak to the jury, that a man still has a Constitutional Right to Trial by Jury in
America? Every lawyer will answer "yes" or "it doesn't matter" or "b-b-b-but...". Every average citizen
that I explain it to seems appropriately incredulous. "Of COURSE Scott will have his Trial By Jury",
his ex-wife Lindsey told Alan Colmes after I was on. "This is America!"
I give every detail any layman or lawyer could want, in an entertaining format, in my "Trial By
Jury" video series posted at my own website, www.Saltshaker.US/Scott-Roeder-Resources.htm and on
Youtube, Dailymotion, Metacafe, and Sevenload. I give many reasons why state supreme courts have
erred on this issue.
In other words, the fundamental problem we are trying to correct is the censorship of basic trial
information from American juries; and your decision is whether to, at your level, "censor" our efforts to
correct this censorship.
Our direct goal is not even to exonerate Scott Roeder. Even if our effort succeeds in getting the
defense before the jury, the jury might decide that even though abortion is horrible, it is not horrible
enough to justify "murdering a doctor". That is what the fictitious jury decided in the "Law And Order"
episode October 23. Our direct goal is just uncensoring trial issues - especially fact issues which
rightfully and lawfully belong before juries.
Doesn't it sound to you like this effort has "substantial political value"?
Your policy also bans "Personal belongings of anyone convicted of a violent felony or any work
(such as a book) from which they might profit."
I hope you know no felon will profit from our efforts. At most, some lawyer might.
You also ban "...artwork created by...violent felons."
I didn't know this until recently, and so I must apologize for talking last week about the
drawings by Scott Roeder, which explicitly violate this rule, at least in the view of almost everybody
although he hasn't been convicted.
You ban "Novelty items related to serial killers" Not sure what you mean by "novelty items" but
I hope we agree none of the prolifers I mix with have ever been accused of being a "serial killer". That
is, unless we count the abortionists we know.
You ban two categories that are too subjective for me to imagine how you might rule, so I
would like to negotiate with your representative, item by item, so we do not take anyone by surprise:
"Items glorifying...persons convicted of a violent felony" & "Items promoting violence against an
individual..."
My purpose in negotiations would not be dispute whether physical action to stop abortion is a
"violent felony". I would accept that as a given, for purposes of abiding by eBay rules. My purpose
would be to understand what you count as "glorifying persons" or "promoting violence". I do not see
anything we do as falling into those categories, so I need to understand your thinking, and perhaps
explain ours. For example, would you accuse the Bible of "promoting violence against an individual"
when such individual is slaughtering thousands every year? How about items which honor police, who
exist for the purpose of inflicting violence upon individuals when justified? How about Biblical
analysis relating to actions taken by people? I don't want to be an unreasonable negotiator; I just want
to work things out with as much mutual understanding as possible.
Your Friday statement misrepresents our statements when it says "the organizers of the sale
publically announced their intent to provide the proceeds to an individual who has been charged with
first degree murder." We have no thought of providing Scott Roeder one single penney from anything
we make. We had thought of contributing towards an attorney, and you have to know, if you have
attorneys to go over these things, that attorneys don't hire clients. Not in America.
You continue, "our policy does not permit listings that benefit someone charged with or
convicted of a violent crime.” I hope you do not count fair legal representation as a "benefit" which you
would want any part of depriving anyone of, here in America. In law, the 6th Amendment Right to
Counsel is a "right", not a "benefit" such as one gets from a welfare office. Surely your verbiage refers
to financial payments to the accused, which the Kansas Crime victims compensation law also means.
By the way, did you read what Lee Thompson said about that fund? You need to know not
everything this man says is grounded in law. He bluffed as far as to threaten to seize anything we made
for that fund.
My analysis of that law is below.
Thank you for leaving my site up this long; I hope it is an indication of your willingness to give
me a chance to become a good business partner.
Dave Leach
music@saltshaker.US
515/244-3711
Here is my analysis of the Victim's Compensation law:
Analysis: Kansas 74-7319 (full text below) applies to “publications, broadcast presentations or
live entertainments” who make financial contracts with prisoners to publish their “thoughts, feelings,
opinions or emotions”.
I think it will take a pretty vivid imagination to mistake an eBay auction for either a publication,
or a broadcast presentation, or a live entertainment.
No one has made, or will make, a contract with Scott Roeder to pay him anything.
No one has thought of a way to turn this auction into a foum for Roeder’s “thoughts, feelings,
opinions or emotions”. Unless those ideas which Roeder shares with all Americans are to be interpreted
as “his”, so that everyone who has published a book about the value of American Trial by Jury must
now be ruled to have profited by publishing Roeder’s views, and their assets must now be seized and
paid into the Victim’s Compensation Fund.
More details: One sense of the word “publication” can be “public notification”, but the sense
demanded by the context of this paragraph is some publication offered for sale, since it is about
capturing profits paid by the publisher to the prisoner. Nothing expressing Roeder’s “thoughts, feelings,
opinions or emotions” is contemplated for sale.
The single exception is the three pencil drawings contributed by Roeder to the auction. No other
contemplated auction item is about Roeder or from Roeder. All other items express nothing about
Roeder. Therefore, the auction as a whole does not “deal principally with the crime for which the
person is accused and convicted”, which is a condition for this law to apply.
The law directs the publisher to “pay to the crime victims compensation board all moneys
which would otherwise by the terms of the contract be owed to the person who committed or is alleged
to have committed the crime.” Which of course would be zero, since there is neither written nor oral
contract, and no thought of paying Roeder one penney. All proceeds were envisioned for Roeder’s
attorney, and as every American knows, attorneys are pretty stingy when it comes to paying their
criminal clients. If it happens in Roeder’s case, it will be one for the record books.
This law goes after money paid to prisoners, and not to fundraising to raise legal fees which will
not be paid to prisoners, for a reason. It is fairly common in American society for groups who feel one
of their members is being railroaded in court to raise money for their defense. Examples: a national
home school organization publishing and mailing fundraising letters to defend a family accused of
home schooling. A Christian legal firm publishing and mailing fundraising letters to resist the ACLU’s
attack on senior citizens praying over their meals in a Senior Citizen Center in Texas. The NRA raising
money to rescue raided gun owners. To go after this category of Redress of Grievances would be an
unthinkable, intolerable assault on our freedoms.
The relief available to the family of the crime victim is to get a money judgment in civil court
against the prisoner. Roeder would surely be in a poor position to defend himself, from his prison cell,
against a civil lawsuit, so perhaps a lawsuit this frivolous could succeed. Except that the attorney paid
the money to represent Roeder would be motivated to represent Roeder in resisting it.
It is clear that Kansas 74-7319 comes no nearer authorizing seizure of legal fees than Roe v.
Wade comes to authorizing judges to subsume the Fact Question of the value of unborn human life
under a Law Question which juries must never be told about, leaving juries with no meaningful
participation in abortion prevention trials.
What then is left for a purpose for this threat from Tiller’s attorney?
Well, it is a bit intimidating. A threat of that magnitude normally succeeds in silencing free
speech, and in this case it is aimed additionally at preventing Scott Roeder from acquiring the counsel
of his choice.
74-7319
Chapter 74.--STATE BOARDS, COMMISSIONS AND AUTHORITIES
Article 73.--CRIME VICTIMS COMPENSATION BOARD
74-7319. Moneys payable to accused or convicted person for use of crime in publications,
broadcast presentations or live entertainments, disposition; victims, notice of receipt of funds,
application for award and payment to. (a) Any individual, partnership, corporation or association which
contracts with any person accused or convicted of the commission of a crime in this state, or with a
representative or assignee of such a person, to use the crime committed or alleged to have been
committed by such person or the expression of such person's thoughts, feelings, opinions or emotions
regarding the crime in any book, magazine or other publication or in any movie, radio, television
presentation or live entertainment shall pay to the crime victims compensation board all moneys which
would otherwise by the terms of the contract be owed to the person who committed or is alleged to
have committed the crime, or such person's representatives or assignees, provided, such book,
magazine or other publication, movie, radio or television presentation or live entertainment of any kind
deals principally with the crime for which the person is accused and convicted. If any person is accused
and convicted of the commission of two or more crimes, the crimes shall, for purposes of determining
whether such publication, presentation or entertainment deals principally with the crime for which the
person is accused and convicted, be combined and considered as one crime.
(b) Upon receipt of such funds pursuant to subsection (a), the crime victims compensation
board immediately shall notify the victim of the crime, as defined in K.S.A. 74-7301, and amendments
thereto, of such receipt. Within six months of such notification, the victim may file a claim with the
board for disbursement of such moneys. If proper application is made and the victim can provide the
board evidence of a money judgment within two years of such notification of the victim by the board,
and such judgment is against the person accused or convicted of committing such crime, the board shall
pay such amount, plus accrued interest at the rate imposed on civil money judgments, to the victim.
Such amount shall not exceed the lesser of the amount of the judgment or the amount of the funds
received by the board.
(c) In the event at the time of the notification provided in subsection (b), the applicable
civil statute of limitations on filing a civil action against such person accused of or convicted of the
crime shall have run, the victim shall have six months from such notification to file a notice of claim as
provided in subsection (b) and a civil action against the person accused or convicted of the crime.
(d) For purposes of this section and a civil action for money damages filed hereunder, the
limitations imposed on money damages in K.S.A. 60-1903, K.S.A. 1992 Supp. 60-19a01 and
subsection (e) of K.S.A. 1992 Supp. 60-3701, and amendments thereto, shall not apply.
History: L. 1986, ch. 306, § 2; L. 1989, ch. 239, § 21; L. 1992, ch. 244, § 1; May 21.
eBay public relations contact: alina piacentino 202-778-1295
Here are the last few comments after the November 2 AP story in the Wichita Eagle as of noon
Tuesday:
JLW7440 wrote on 11/2/2009 12:33:37 PM: LEACH....There is no doubt but what you’ve been
reading every posted commentary for several weeks now in this publication regarding Ebay as it relates
to your disgusting intent in promoting an auction. Thankfully, that is a mute issue now. In much of the
past press you’ve gotten over the years, you continually profess to deplore violence, once even
condemned the action of Roeder, but that was only an attempt to save face for your organizations
common cause. Now, contrary to your initial condemnation, you tried to organize the insidious
marketing of smut claming it to have historical value. How shallow, seedy and squalid a person you
are. There is more plastic in your hypocritic, self-righteous purity than can be found in a bushel basket
of Visa cards. You thinking so highly of this clown Roeder, it is truly unfortunate Kansas don’t have the
electric chair when the eventual outcome for this cold-blooded, calculated murderer is administered and
you would not be sitting in his lap when the switch is pulled!
tpgisgay wrote on 11/2/2009 12:50:55 PM: So somebody can post that Scott Roeders' mom
should have had an abortion (not that I disagree), but my link, as well as others, to the items being sold
are considered "abusive"?
JLW7440 wrote on 11/2/2009 1:47:53 PM:
I'd bet about now Roeder's mother wishes birth control was retro-active as do many, many other
people.Calvin43 wrote on 11/2/2009 4:41:32 PM: Remember: There was once a time when John
Brown of Osawatomie was denounced as a murder and madman. He was hung for inciting rebellion
against a government that sanctioned slavery. Today, John Brown is honored and revered as a soldier of
freedom for those unable to defend themselves. Who knows what tomorrow will bring? The day may
not be far distant when today's opponents of abortion are equally honored and revered as the defenders
of young life over death.
Jimpac wrote on 11/2/2009 9:50:56 PM: In 1973 the price of an human life in the USA was
established to be $43.00
Roe VS Wade
Guess What!!!
Your worth much less than that if the Obama Care pays the bill!
PRO / or NO?
pub17 wrote on 11/3/2009 8:35:37 AM: Oh, too bad, sorry Jimpac, even the Bible doesn't say a
fetus is a "human life."
Are you really sure that a fetus is a baby?
DaveLeach wrote on 11/3/2009 10:31:21 AM: Luke 1:41 says when John the Baptist had been
in the womb only 6 months, he heard the voice of Jesus’ mother and leaped for joy. This is something
which a tumor cannot do. (Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of
Mary, the babe leaped in her womb...)
Psalm 139:13-16 describes how God was watching you and me growing in the womb, back
before our bodies even had arms or legs. (Psalms 139:16 but with your own eyes you saw my body
being formed.)
Jeremiah 1:5 says God offers each of us a purpose for life, at least by the moment of conception,
before our bodies begin forming. (Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and
before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the
nations.)
DaveLeach wrote on 11/3/2009 10:32:06 AM: Jeremiah 19:5 says a parent murdering her own
baby is so horrible it never even entered God’s mind! (Jeremiah 19:5 They have built also the high
places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor
spake it, neither came it into my mind:) Proverbs 24:10-12 shows God expects us to rescue those
being led away to slaughter. Only government authorized murderers operate openly enough for the
public to intervene. (Proverbs 24:11 Don’t hesitate to rescue someone who is about to be executed
unjustly.) Also Leviticus 19:26 You must not stand idly by when your neighbor’s life is at stake (NET,
NLT)
DaveLeach wrote on 11/3/2009 12:13:58 PM: By the way, regarding JLW7440's [so much fun
to be rude when you are anonymous!] charge that I once condemned Roeder's action:
I saw what KSHABBY-TV did to my 40 minute taped interview. Here's what the editors did: I was
explaining how the jury might reason, and why the jury, even if given the defense, might not
necessarily acquit, but that I expected ultimate victory if the defense could be pried from the judge's
tight grip. I said "The jury might decide that ABORTION IS TERRIBLE, BUT SO IS SHOOTING AN
ABORTIONIST. But even if that is the outcome, if the Necessity Defense gets to the jury, the door to
its availability in future doorblocking cases will be wide open, and abortion will end." What an
amazing, creative use of video editing equipment, to extract that capitalized portion to make me appear
to condemn the very action for which I am raising money to exonerate!
DaveLeach wrote on 11/3/2009 12:18:18 PM:
The really surprising thing about all this is that remember years ago, when the media always
made us out to be more fanatic than we were, by reporting the nubbins of our remarkable positions
without reporting the Scriptures or the pictures that justified our positions? Well, now I have caught
them half a dozen times now making me look LESS fanatic than I really am. The Des Moines editors
on Channel 13 did something similar. Are they trying, this time, to make us appear NORMAL? What's
up with that?
Not that we can ever appear normal, before our concern about censored defenses and trial issues
in court is fully explained. I hope that will come soon.
Saltshaker.US/Scott-Roeder-Resources.htm
Ebay Auction to raise legal defense funds for Scott Roeder
By Dave Leach
News, history, background, perspective
Our idea for an auction to raise money for Scott Roeder’s legal defense began August 27 with
my vain attempt to deflect a totally disrespectful comment from Don Spitz.
After recounting how I had edited errors in the Wikipedia entry about me, Don replied, “I'm
quite honored to know a famous person such as yourself. Maybe, someday, if the Lord wills, I can meet
you again face to face and obtain an official autograph, which I can then auction off on E-bay.”
Some day I would like to recount that story. For now, we will fast forward to November 2, the
150th anniversary of the last day of John Brown’s trial, when eBay pulled down our auction citing
violations of its vague policy, after a week of almost daily front page headlines about it.
My auction was up for 20 hours and 21 minutes, and eBay was looking for it but couldn’t find
it! That’s right, I posted it at 7:30 pm on the nose Sunday night, November 1, 2009, and about 11pm a
story went out about it in the Kansas City Star which described the items but didn’t say where to find it;
they didn’t pull it until 4:51 pm Monday, right after an AP story went out with one more clue where to
find it!
Specifically, I auctioned a catechism written by Michael Bray titled “The Faith Once
Delivered”. The Sunday night story called it only a “document of religious instruction” by a “convicted
clinic bomber”. The Monday story identified it as a “catechism” by “Bray”. Although I had spelled it
“B.r.a.y”. I auctioned what I called a “prolife Bible” owned by Shelley Shannon. Both articles only
mentioned a “Bible” and “Shannon”, but I had spelled it “S.h.a.n.n.o.n”. The Monday story, adding the
search word “catechism”, narrowed down their search.
Coincidence? That eBay pulled it 46 minutes after the second article? Surely! How could the
Google Search Gurus fail to find my auction, on their own site, within minutes?! Especially after a KC
Star story drew their attention to it! Surely the only reason they delayed so long was that they saw the
innocence of what I had posted, and the innocence of my intent explained in the accompanying article,
and reconsidered their fear that I was their enemy.
I had been hopeful.
But alas! Not so. Roxanne Hegeman of the AP told me eBay had asked HER for the link to my
auction! She didn’t give it, until she released her story containing it!
Options remain for us. Software is available to let us run our own auction. A couple of packages
I looked at are $400, and I imagine there will be a learning curve, so we’ll see. We have had enough
publicity, I think, to attract buyers. Especially if we do it soon.
In case is wondering, no, I am not such a “publicity hound” that I enjoy, and actively seek, news
coverage that feeds public misunderstanding of what I am doing.
But I have been pondering the “bad press” Jesus got from the Pharisees, and how He handled it,
and a strategy remains alive in my mind how to turn this all around into a public move to end abortion.
I explained a little in a post after the November 3 story announcing everything had been pulled down:
“When I explain to average citizens how judges in abortion prevention trials have gotten in the
habit of calling the fact issue of the nature of what Scott Roeder prevented a "question of law" which
juries are unqualified to know about, people are appropriately incredulous. "This is America", Scott's
ex wife Lindsey told Alan Colmes after I was on. "Of COURSE Scott will get his trial by jury."
“News stories haven't said much to explain the Necessity Defense yet, because Scott hasn't yet
declared publicly that he will use it. I am hopeful that will happen soon, the de fact denial or trial by
jury will be fully explained, and average people will understand and correct it.
True, we all know abortion has been "legal" for 37 years. What lawyers know but average
people have not been told, is what courts have done to our Constitutional Right to Trial By Jury all
these years to keep abortion "legal".
Do you think it is radical, extremist, hateful, bigoted, to ask that a jury be told the only
contested issue of a trial? I don't.
More info at saltshaker.us/Scott-Roeder-Resources.htm.
And yes, "cynical", you are right about eBay's double standard. They still have heavy sales of
"Hit Man", too. My auction stayed up 20 hours and 21 minutes because eBay's Google Gurus literally
couldn't find my site! I find that very hard to believe, but I know because they actually asked a reporter
for the link, and didn't take it down until its location was revealed in a story! No such excuse for "Hit
Man". That is very easy to find.
My letter to eBay about these inconsistencies, and appealing to them to let me work with them,
is at the above link.
With that introduction, let’s back up a week to the October 27 AP story saying eBay vowed to
shut us down. October 25, Sunday, Judy Thomas of the KC Star had broken the story about our plans
for an auction starting the following Sunday, November 1. Here is the October 27 story:
eBay: No auction for suspect in Kan. doc's death
By MARIA SUDEKUM FISHER, AP
Online retailer eBay said Tuesday it will block an auction planned to raise money for the man
charged with killing Kansas abortion provider George Tiller.
Supporters of the man had said that they wanted to raise money to pay for Scott Roeder's
defense. They planned to auction off items including an Army of God manual, an underground
publication for anti-abortion militants that describes ways to shut down clinics, including bombing.
Also on the auction list was a prison cookbook compiled by Shelley Shannon, the Oregon
woman who shot and wounded Tiller in 1993 and was later convicted in a series of abortion clinic
arsons and bombings.
"Based on the details we know about the anticipated listings, we believe these would violate our
policy regarding offensive material," eBay said in a statement.
If the items were posted, eBay said it would remove them from the online marketplace site
because the company "does not allow listings that promote or glorify violence, hate, racial or religious
intolerance.
"We do not allow items that encourage, promote or instruct others to engage in illegal activity
and will not be a platform for those who promote violence toward others," the company statement said.
Tiller had been the target of protests for most of the 36 years that he performed abortions at his
Wichita clinic, where he practiced as one of the nation's few providers of late-term abortions. He was
fatally shot in his church in May.
Roeder, 51, is charged with first-degree murder in Tiller's death and is being held without bond.
His trial has been scheduled for January.
Dave Leach, a Des Moines, Iowa, abortion opponent who was organizing the auction, said
Tuesday he had contacted eBay about what the auction would entail, and also to tell the company "that
we're not out for glorifying violence. We're wanting to get a man to his right by a trial by jury."
Leach questioned eBay's decision to stop the auction for Roeder, but said that the decision
doesn't surprise him. He said other projects are in the works to raise money for Roeder, who has been
appointed public defenders, but was considering hiring private lawyers.
"The items that we're thinking of marketing have historical value in the history of freedom of speech in
the pro-life movement," Leach said.
Here is a parallel story in the KC Star:
Posted on Tue, Oct. 27, 2009 Printed Oct 28, Front Page
EBay refuses benefit auction for Roeder
By JUDY L. THOMAS
The Kansas City Star
An eBay auction planned by abortion opponents to raise money for the man accused of killing
Wichita abortion doctor George Tiller will not be permitted, company officials said Tuesday.
“Based on the details we know about the anticipated listings, we believe these would violate our
policy regarding offensive material,” the company said in a statement to The Kansas City Star. “EBay
will not permit the items in question to be posted to the eBay site, and they will be removed if they are
posted.”
The announcement came the same day that Tiller’s family implored eBay to prevent the
auction.
“These materials contain hate messages, glorify violence against abortion doctors who provide
constitutionally protected medical services, and instruct on means of violence, including bombing, of
abortion clinics,” said Lee Thompson, an attorney for the Tiller family, in a letter sent to eBay on
Tuesday and approved by Tiller’s widow, Jeanne Tiller.
“We urge you to deny access to the resources of eBay for this reprehensible and vile
‘auction.’ ”
The auction was intended to raise money for the defense of Scott Roeder, who is charged with
first-degree murder in Tiller’s death and is scheduled to go on trial in January. Currently, Roeder is
being represented by public defenders.
Roeder’s supporters are encouraging him to use a “necessity defense,” saying that Tiller’s
killing on May 31 was an act of justifiable homicide. Other anti-abortion activists charged with violent
crimes have tried to use such a defense, but with little success.
Those working on the fundraiser said banning the auction was a violation of their rights.
“They’re not only chilling the First Amendment of the Constitution, they’re raping the whole
Constitution,” said Regina Dinwiddie, a Kansas City abortion opponent and friend of Roeder.
She said the move wouldn’t stop those who are trying to help Roeder.
“We have other plans that I’m not at the discretion to say right now,” she said. “This is money
for Scott Roeder so he can have a true defense. They’re trying to shoot down the truth of what went on
behind Tiller’s closed doors and fenced gates, but it’s not going to work.”
The controversy arose after an article in Sunday’s Star about the auction. Items being donated
included an Army of God manual, a prison cookbook compiled by a woman doing time for abortion
clinic bombings and arsons, and several autographed drawings submitted by Roeder.
One drawing was of David and Goliath that depicted David holding the head of Goliath and the
name “Tiller” on Goliath’s forehead. The words “child-murdering industry” were written on the corpse.
Dave Leach, an Iowa abortion opponent who was organizing the auction, planned to launch it
Sunday. He was donating a reprint of an Army of God manual, an underground publication that
describes dozens of ways to shut down abortion clinics, including bombing. Leach, who published the
manual in 1996 in his magazine, Prayer and Action News, said he would cover the pages containing
bomb recipes.
The prison recipes were being donated by Shelley Shannon, the Oregon woman who shot and
wounded Tiller in 1993 and later was convicted in a series of abortion clinic arsons and bombings.
Dinwiddie, who made headlines in 1995 when a federal judge ordered her to stop using a
bullhorn within 500 feet of abortion clinics, planned to donate an autographed bullhorn similar to those
she used when protesting.
Roeder’s ex-wife, Lindsey Roeder, said she was thrilled the auction was being rejected. She
said she contacted eBay on Monday to voice her concerns.
“I believe that this auction could incite more violence on abortion clinics and doctors,” she
wrote in an e-mail to eBay. “I do not believe that canceling this auction will in any way hinder Scott’s
right to an adequate defense, as he has a good team of public defenders.”
In his letter to eBay, Thompson said that any proceeds of the auction should go to the Kansas
Crime Victims Compensation Board. Such proceeds, he said, would come under the provision of the
Son of Sam law in Kansas, which was designed to keep those charged with crimes from profiting from
their actions.
It its statement, eBay said, “we do not allow items that encourage, promote, facilitate or instruct
others to engage in illegal activity and will not be a platform for those who promote violence toward
others.”
Leach said eBay’s policy was ambiguous.
“They won’t allow anything that glorifies violence, they say. Wasn’t World War II a bit
violent?” he said. “Doesn’t eBay do a brisk business in books and artifacts that glorify the U.S. role in
it? Isn’t the Bible sold on eBay? I can’t even imagine how eBay could rewrite its policy in a way that
targets us without targeting a huge slice of its customers.”
Inside
Mike Hendricks: Supporters see Scott Roeder as a modern John Brown | A4
To reach Judy L. Thomas, call 816-234-4334 or send e-mail to jthomas@kcstar.com.
Shelley Shannon, who has 9 more years to serve for shooting George Tiller in each arm in 1993,
commented in an email (prisoners are just now getting a very controlled access to emails; they must
pay ten cents a minute to use the computers):
“Yes, the [cookbook] cover is on the way to you, as of Mon. morning, I believe it was. It will
need to be copied, because I did some cut and paste with a previous cartoon. You'll see. And PLEASE
tell me you are typing the recipes and making a nice-looking booklet (?). I scribbled them out quickly,
as you could see, assuming you would make the book itself, so I hope so.
All's well here. Raining today, but supposed to snow tomorrow.
Almost sounds like the lawsuit could be more productive than if they let the auction happen.
Not right though. They caved to pro-abort pressure. It was funny to read the quotes from the pro-abort
in Judy Thomas' article. Didn't even fit. As though they had prewritten quotes to use when the media
asked for any. Weird.
By the way, Judy's article was the MO summary news that day in the USA Today.
Blessings to you, Shelley
Here is the article I posted on eBay with the Bible I auctioned, which Shelley had mailed to me
about 10 years ago. Notice the hyphens and periods I inserted so search engines, searching for those
words, could not easily find them. But honestly, I am still incredulous that these primitive steps held off
the Google search team for 20 minutes, much less 20 hours and 21 minutes! My only hope had been to
keep it up long enough that eBay’s policy makers and lawyers could see my article and reconsider their
fear that I am their enemy. Here’s the article:
Prolife Bible
Don't believe me. Believe God. This is the King James Version Bible owned by S.h.e.l.l.y
S.h.a.n.n.o.n until she sent it to me about 10 years ago when she was transferred from state to federal
prison. I have highlighted many verses in it which prolifers cite to show that conception is "when life
begins", at least in God's opinion. Bookmarks help you easily find each one. With the Bible is an article
listing the verses and explaining, in some cases, how the verses apply to the issue, or the meanings of
the words in the original language.
For example, did you know even Roe v. Wade cites a verse from Exodus? Would you like to
know how the Court justified genocide out of that verse?
The list of verses here, and comments about them, have been contributed by several prolife
activists. In fact, as this auction runs, I will invite prolife friends to contribute additional verses, with
explanations of their relevance. I also invite YOU to submit verses and discussion. Send to
Pilgrim@Saltshaker.US. The high bidder will receive the Bible and an article compiling all these
results.
“VIO-LENCE” IN THE BIBLE. The Bible provides a rational context for judging if and when
“vio-lence” is good or evil. Police are deliberately equipped and authorized to be vio-lent. Is it an
offense against reason and morality to glor-ify police? Kansas courts sometimes order the kil-ling of
kil-lers. Shall we censor those who respect Kansas courts?
The Bible agrees with police and Kansas courts that sometimes the vio-lent need to be violently
stopped. Police and courts agree with Ecclesiastes 3 that there is “a time to k.i.l.l, and a time to
heal; ...a time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.”
So how can comments after news articles be full of condemnation of the Bible because it glorifies
vio-lence, yet full of respect for police who exist for violence, and for courts which justify their
violence? These bloggers express so much rage against any appeal to the moral authority of the violence-
tainted Bible that you know many of them would vio-lently censor any mention of God were they
under one of the many governments around the world sympathetic with that goal.
This at first appears contradictory, but upon examination it proves merely hypocritical.
There is real disagreement between God and America’s police and courts. It is not over whether
vio-lence is sometimes just-ified, but it is over when it is just-ified.
God takes the position that ALL who kill the innocent need to be killed. Gen 9.6. God’s position
is that those who kill killers, through as legal a process as their government permits, are not criminals,
nor are they “avenging themselves”, but they are fulfilling God’s vengeance. Romans 12:19, Isaiah
63:4.
By contrast, human governments have, throughout history, given kil-lers open season on
selected groups of human beings, calling their slaughter “legal”, refusing to recognize it as a “harm”,
and prosecuting those who try to save them. This is where the positions of God and of human
governments part ways. This is what God promises to judge with the same degree of vio-lence which
the vio-lent have committed.
Therefore when people want to censor only that “vio-lence glor-ifying” speech which God
justifies, it should be obvious that their real target is that speech which glor-ifies God.
Not that God cares about glory, for His benefit. Who are we, that He should care what we think
of Him? Job 35:5-8. But God loves us, and hates what we do to ourselves by justifying genocide. He
invites us into Heaven. But if we are this comfortable with genocide all around us, how are we going to
be comfortable in Heaven where the very thought of the slightest unkindness would be an
abomination?
VIO-LENCE AND LOVE. If God loves all, why is it hard to grasp why Bible verses like Pro
24:10-12 would call us to rescue those being unjustly slaughtered? How can the innocent live, unless
those who murder them are stopped? Should we have no police? No courts? No laws?
Laws mean to protect good and restrain evil. It would be absurd for any law to expressly intend
great harm. Mark 3:4. In situations where enforcement of the letter of a law would cause harm, the
spirit of the law would be violated by enforcement, which is rightly suspended by the Ne-cess-ity Defense.
This is S.c.o.t.t R.o.e.d.e.r's defense. It would be absurd to interpret Roe v. Wade as expressly
intending genocide. Yet Roe said "the judiciary...is not in a position to speculate" on whether the
millions of unborn slain at its direction are human beings. Roe said if triers of fact determine that they
are, Roe should "collapse".
Lower courts violate Roe by deciding the fact question which Roe said no judge is qualified to
decide: the judges say they can't recognize abortion as harming human beings because it is "legal".
Besides that, judges decide this fact question by themselves, before the trial begins, and order
defendants not to say a word about their defense, and the only contested trial issue, to the jury, even
though they tell juries they are judges of the facts. Attorneys are used to this system, but most
Americans would not call this a "trial by jury". They would call it a "trial by a judge".
Nothing can be more illegal than what courts have done all these years to keep abortion "legal".
WHAT WE SUPPORT. Our goal is an end to vio-lence against abortionists, and against babies,
through restoring the Constitutional Right to Trial by Jury, even in abortion prevention cases. Proceeds
from this auction will be devoted to that end.
I can’t imagine anything more American than fund raising for an attorney to give a man his
right to a trial by an informed jury. American mailboxes are clogged with fund raising letters to pay
attorneys. The ACLU sends out a fund raising letter so they can afford to sue somebody for putting up a
Christmas tree. The ACLJ sends out a fund raising letter so they can afford to oppose the ACLU. That’s
the American system.
I can’t imagine anything more unAmerican than any move by anyone to censor such an effort. I
would be less surprised by a move like that in Communist China.
That last allusion, for those who don’t follow Google news, is that Google has taken public
relations heat, although not nearly enough, for readily acceding to Communist China’s rules for
censoring Christian content, critical comment, and much more from its search engine results
throughout China.
Here is my brief description of Mike Bray’s Catechism which I likewise posted: (It was mostly
written by him):
This Catechism was written by Mike B.r.a.y after a court judgment against him by Planned
Barrenhood (PP v. ACLA, 1995), for publishing a book, entitled PB to his “writings, published and
unpublished.” However, PB has done little with its seized books, being unwilling to sell them, or to
credit B.r.a.y’s judgment for their value. In fact, on October 14, Bray filed a lawsuit against PB for
seizing more than Ohio law allowed, and then for not returning them when ordered by the court. The
copy for auction, donated by him, is one of 500 printed in the city of his residence, Wilmington, Ohio.
It summarizes the doctrines taught to children of Reformation Lutheran Church for 19 years. It used to
instruct his remaining at-home children. The copy for sale is signed by its author, A.r.m.y of God
activist Don S.p.i.t.z, A.r.m.y of God man-ual (reprint) publisher, Dave L.e.a.c.h, and the original F A C
E defendant Re-gin-a Din-wid-die. It deals with traditional church doctrines. It briefly mentions
abortion, looking to the day when it will once again be illegal.
For background information about the purpose of this auction, see the article with the Prolife
Bible just posted.
I was still hopeful when I emailed Shelley Shannon at noon Monday. I wrote:
I posted your Bible, that you sent me about 10 years ago, last night at 7:30pm sharp. Along with
it I posted Mike Bray's catechism. So far, even though eBay has vowed to take it down immediately, it's
still up, even though last night about 11pm Judy Thomas put her story about it online. However, a
separate auction, arranged by Regina, which posted all the incendiary stuff, was taken down an hour
ago. The first of the items had been posted about 9pm.
I can only hope the reason eBay has not taken mine down is that they see the innocence of the
items, and the innocence of my intent in the accompanying article, and are reconsidering their concern
that I am their enemy.
Here is the article I posted alongside your Bible: (It's long, if my audience were bidders; but my
audience was eBay attorneys.) (Article not repeated here)
Here’s the KC Star article announcing the auction had started:
Posted on Sun, Nov. 01, 2009
EBay auction to benefit Roeder defense
proceeds
By JUDY L. THOMAS
The Kansas City Star
An eBay auction to raise money for the man charged with killing a Wichita abortion doctor
launched Sunday night despite eBay’s pledge to nix it.
But organizers posted items that were less contentious than those they’d originally planned to
sell, and they used spellings that make searches difficult.
“I really am hopeful that eBay can see that once this is up, that it is not a glorification of
violence,” said auction organizer Dave Leach, an abortion opponent from Iowa. “If the auction stays
up, it will only be because eBay has been shamed into recognizing the nonviolent nature of the items.”
EBay officials were not available Sunday for comment. But last week, they said the proposed
listings violated the company’s policy regarding offensive material.
“We do not oppose all listings that raise money for legal defense funds,” said Jack Christin Jr.,
eBay’s associate general counsel for government relations, in a Friday statement. “However, our policy
does not permit listings that benefit someone charged with or convicted of a crime.”
The auction was planned as a fundraiser for the defense of Scott Roeder, the Kansas City man
charged in the May 31 shooting death of late-term abortion provider George Tiller. Roeder’s supporters
want him to hire an attorney other than his public defenders in order to use a “necessity defense,”
saying that Tiller’s killing was an act of justifiable homicide.
Items organizers said were being donated for the auction include several drawings submitted by
Roeder; an Army of God manual that describes dozens of ways to shut down abortion clinics; and a
prison cookbook compiled by Shelley Shannon, who shot Tiller in 1993 and is serving time for clinic
arsons and bombings.
On Sunday, however, the only items listed were a document of religious instruction written by a
convicted clinic bomber and a Bible that belonged to Shannon.
“It has all the pro-life passages highlighted,” Leach said of the Bible.
Comments as of 6:54 am Monday, November 2 after Judy Thomas’ Kansas City Star story about 11pm
Sunday night (online) that announced the auction had started:
KCComments wrote on 11/1/2009 11:51:30 PM: E-Bay was probably afraid of a lawsuit from
Roeders supporters. It would not surprise me if the ACLU stepped in if e-bay nixed the auction. If they
decided to shut down the auction I don't think people would blame them and it would not hurt their
business. But the cost to fight a lawsuit costs money.
sonoflaw wrote on 11/2/2009 12:58:43 AM: Pretty sad Ebay fell to the ignorance of a group
that protest killing, but support one of their own for murder. No wonder Lenny Bruce said, "More
people are going to God, than church."
DaveLeach wrote on 11/2/2009 1:02:51 AM: I wish I could see these "company statements".
Tuesday it was "...our policy regarding offensive material,,,does not allow listings that promote or
glorify violence, hate, racial or religious intolerance. We do not allow items that encourage, promote or
instruct others to engage in illegal activity and will not be a platform for those who promote violence
toward others." I responded that World War II was violent; will eBay censor items honoring our role in
it? Friday it was "We do not oppose all listings that raise money for legal defense funds... However, our
policy does not permit listings that benefit someone charged with or convicted of a crime.” So if we
succeed in our goal of trial by an informed jury for Roeder - a jury from which the judge does not hide
Roeder's defense, and the only contested issue of the trial, that is a goal which eBay will obstruct using
its vast censorship powers? eBay doesn't like the American court system? eBay maybe prefers Chinese
judges and censors?
Skeptic wrote on 11/2/2009 1:11:45 AM: eBay is perfectly within its rights to shut down the
auction. They have a great many rules and if they're not followed, they can pull any posting and
suspend or cancel any user account.
This is only a publicity stunt, after all, by misfits and zealots, the American Taliban, who once
again get unearned space in the nation's papers by doing something obscene.
jayhawk6 wrote on 11/2/2009 1:23:37 AM: ebay's explanation is doublespeak.
The Leach-Dinwiddie army of demented Christian soldiers got something for their efforts but just how
much money they ultimately raise remains to be seen. This has been a publicity stunt, pure and simple.
hajkar wrote on 11/2/2009 6:26:07 AM: I wouldn't be so quick to condemn e-bay. THese
morons launched their auctions like thieves in the night. By their own admission, they carefully used
words that make the items hard to find. In fact, my efforts to locate these items came up with nothing.
And Dave Leach is still trying to convince us of the parallels of WWII memorabilia and the trash he is
trying to sell. The man's actions are as fraudulent as his logic. Moron.
Monday morning about 10 am I talked to Roxanne Hegeman, Associated Press, and made a few
notes on just a few of the things I said:
“Ebay’s statement Friday says a mother can’t sell her son’s car to raise money for his lawyer to
fight a misdemeanor. That’s silly.”
Roxanne asked, “but this is murder.”
I said, “ebay can’t draw the line at the seriousness of the crime, saying they support a trial by
jury for less serious crimes but oppose trial by an informed jury for more serious crimes. All we are
asking is for Scott’s jury to have meaningful participation in his trial. That’s not a fanatic, fringe,
radical thing to ask.
“America’s mailboxes are clogged with fundraising appeals for attorneys to fight landmark
cases where people have been accused falsely, or accused honestly of things which shouldn’t be crimes.
Like where BATF agents barge into an Arizona farm house and terrorize the occupants and carry off
records, allegedly for drug suspicions but probably over cattle rights. We raise money for lawyers to
fight each other all the time. That’s what America is all about. (That got a chuckle from her.)
“Ebay is struggling right now to craft a statement that applies to us without also applying to
thousands of others whose censorship would disgust average Americans.”
The following is kind of a note to myself. It is where Tiller’s own attorney confirms that judges
will not allow juries in abortion prevention trials to know the only contested issue. Later I include this
statement in my letter to eBay. Here I just highlight it and marvel:
Thompson told Rachel Maddow last Monday, October 26, on MSNBC, "They say the
fundraiser is to hire an attorney to advance what's called the Necessity Defense, a
justification for some violent act. But that's been routinely rejected by virtually every court, and
it's certainly been rejected by the Supreme Court of Kansas. Which in 1993, and in an
abortion case, said to permit such a defense would invite chaos and perhaps could lead
ultimately to anarchy. So I can't imagine that any judge sitting in Wichita Kansas would go
against the Kansas Supreme Court on that issue."
Here is the AP story Monday, at 3:05 Iowa time, which gave eBay another clue where to find
my auction, which they then officially pulled down 46 minutes later.
AP, reprinted on comcast.net
Ebay removes anti-abortion memorabilia from site
Mon Nov 2, 2:05 PM EST
Online auction house eBay says it has begun removing several items put up for sale by antiabortion
activists trying to raise funds for the man accused of killing a Kansas abortion provider.
The San Jose, Calif. company said Monday the items violated its listing policies.
Activists say at least 10 items were removed. But some items from supporters of Scott Roeder
could still be found on eBay as of Monday afternoon. Roeder is charged in the May 31 fatal shooting of
Dr. George Tiller in his Wichita church.
One of the items still up for sale was a worn Bible that had belonged to Shelley Shannon, an
Oregon woman who shot and wounded Tiller in 1993.
Roeder's supporters say they were putting the items on eBay to raise money for his defense.
Here is the Wichita Eagle version,
Wichita Eagle:
WICHITA, Kan. - Online auction house eBay said it has begun taking down several items of
anti-abortion memorabilia posted to raise funds for the man accused of killing a Kansas abortion
doctor. The company said Monday the items violated its listing policies. Some of the more obscure
items were still posted early Monday. One is a worn Bible once owned by Shelley Shannon, the Oregon
woman who shot and wounded Dr. George Tiller in 1993 and was later convicted in a series of abortion
clinic arsons and bombings. The other is a signed Catechism written by Ohio anti-abortion activist
Michael Bray after a court judgment against him. Scott Roeder is charged in the May 31 shooting of
Tiller at a Wichita church he attended.
Read more:
http://www.kansas.com/topstories/story/1037464.html?
story_link=email_msg#ixzz0Vk5V2GMB
Wichita Eagle Posted on Tue, Nov. 03, 2009
EBay pulls auctions to benefit Roeder
BY ROXANA HEGEMAN
Associated Press
Online auction house eBay has removed items that were posted for sale by abortion opponents
trying to raise money for the defense of a man accused of killing George Tiller, the company said
Monday.Supporters of Scott Roeder posted various items late Sunday in separate eBay auctions,
including an Army of God manual, an underground publication for anti-abortion militants that
describes ways to shut down clinics.
After about five hours, eBay removed 10 items, abortion opponents said. The final two items
were removed by late Monday afternoon.
EBay said the anti-abortion memorabilia violated its listing polices.
"Today, eBay removed several listings on our site that violated several of our policies including
our offensive materials' policy. This policy prohibits items that promote or glorify hatred, violence,
racial, sexual, or religious intolerance, or promote organizations with such views," eBay said in a
statement.
Roeder is charged with first-degree murder and aggravated assault in the May 31 shooting of
Tiller at his Wichita church. Abortion opponents are trying to raise money for Roeder, who was
appointed public defenders but is considering hiring private lawyers. He has pleaded not guilty to the
charges.A mong the last items removed from eBay was a worn Bible once owned by Shelley Shannon,
an Oregon woman who shot and wounded Tiller in 1993 and was later convicted in a series of abortion
clinic arsons and bombings. The other was a signed book of religious teachings written by Ohio
abortion opponent Michael Bray.
Those two items were posted by Iowa activist Dave Leach. In the description of the Bible,
which had 13 bidders and a high bid of approximately $60 before it was taken down, Leach wrote that
Shannon had given it to him a decade ago when she was transferred from state to federal prison.
"Our goal is an end to vio-lence against abortionists, and against babies, through restoring the
Constitutional Right to Trial by Jury, even in abortion prevention cases. Proceeds from this auction will
be devoted to that end," the listing said.
Roeder's supporters said they want jurors to hear the so-called necessity defense, which claims
the killing was necessary to prevent a greater harm like abortion.
"This whole thing is a censorship," Leach said after his postings were taken down. "The judge
censors the defense from the jury and here is eBay censoring our efforts to try to end this censorship."
Kansas City abortion opponent Regina Dinwiddie said the 10 items she posted raised several
hundred dollars from at least a dozen bidders before eBay removed them. She vowed Roeder's
supporters will continue to try to raise funds for his defense.
"I am very disappointed in eBay," Dinwiddie said. "I thought that was the last bastion of free
enterprise in America with no political viewpoint, but I see I was mistaken about that."
She said other removed items included three drawings commissioned by Roeder in jail and
signed by him, a prison cookbook written by Shannon, several anti-abortion books and bumper
stickers, and an oil painting by Clayton Waagner, the man who sent hundred of anthrax scare letters to
abortion providers in 2001.
Comments:
HonestObserver wrote on 11/3/2009 6:22:37 AM: Hate sells or the Eagle wouldn't be picking
this scab.
Cynical wrote on 11/3/2009 7:00:04 AM: Why does ebay continue to sell books from a
convicted murderer that is still in prison? Seems like a double standard
Mr_Obvious wrote on 11/3/2009 8:06:59 AM: Why does the Eagle continue to milk this story?
They know these kinds of stories will provoke some ill feelings.
Calvin43 wrote on 11/3/2009 8:19:02 AM: Remember: There was once a time when John
Brown of Osawatomie was denounced as a murder and madman. He was hung for inciting rebellion
against a government that sanctioned slavery. Today, John Brown is honored and revered as a soldier of
freedom for those unable to defend themselves. Who knows what tomorrow will bring? The day may
not be far distant when today's opponents of abortion are equally honored and revered as the defenders
of young life over death.
DaveLeach wrote on 11/3/2009 8:26:16 AM: When I explain to average citizens how judges in
abortion prevention trials have gotten in the habit of calling the fact issue of the nature of what Scott
Roeder prevented a "question of law" which juries are unqualified to know about, people are
appropriately incredulous. "This is America", Scott's ex wife Lindsey told Alan Colmes after I was on.
"Of COURSE Scott will get his trial by jury."
News stories haven't said much to explain the Necessity Defense yet, because Scott hasn't yet
declared publicly that he will use it. I am hopeful that will happen soon, the de fact denial or trial by
jury will be fully explained, and average people will understand and correct it.
True, we all know abortion has been "legal" for 37 years. What lawyers know but average
people have not been told, is what courts have done to our Constitutional Right to Trial By Jury all
these years to keep abortion "legal".
DaveLeach wrote on 11/3/2009 8:33:44 AM:
(Cont'd) Do you think it is radical, extremist, hateful, bigoted, to ask that a jury be told the only
contested issue of a trial? I don't.
More info at saltshaker.us/Scott-Roeder-Resources.htm.
And yes, "cynical", you are right about eBay's double standard. They still have heavy sales of
"Hit Man", too. My auction stayed up 20 hours and 21 minutes because eBay's Google Gurus literally
couldn't find my site! I find that very hard to believe, but I know because they actually asked a reporter
for the link, and didn't take it down until its location was revealed in a story! No such excuse for "Hit
Man". That is very easy to find.
My letter to eBay about these inconsistencies, and appealing to them to let me work with them,
is at the above link.
(I also posted these comments after the following parallel story by Judy Thomas:)
Kansas City Star
Ebay blocks Roeder auction
By JUDY L. THOMAS
The Kansas City Star
An online auction to raise money for the Kansas City man charged with killing a Wichita
abortion doctor was short-lived.
EBay took down most of the auction items Monday within hours of the listings being posted.
“They said we had violated their rules,” said Regina Dinwiddie, one of the auction organizers.
“This is egregious censorship with pro-abortion bias.”
On Monday, eBay released a short statement:
“Today, eBay removed several listings on our site that violated several of our policies including
our offensive materials policy. This policy prohibits items that promote or glorify hatred, violence,
racial, sexual, or religious intolerance, or promote organizations with such views.”
Auction organizers posted the items Sunday night and early Monday under two listings.
Dinwiddie’s listing contained 10 items, including several drawings submitted by Tiller’s accused killer,
Scott Roeder; an Army of God manual that describes dozens of ways to shut down abortion clinics; and
a prison cookbook compiled by Shelley Shannon, who shot Tiller in 1993 and is serving time for clinic
arsons.
But organizers also posted two items that were less controversial under a different listing — a
Bible that belonged to Shannon and a Catechism written by Michael Bray, an abortion foe who served
time in prison in the 1980s for a series of clinic bombings.
Those items were pulled about 4 p.m. Monday.
Dinwiddie said her listings were removed within six hours.
In an e-mail to Dinwiddie, the company categorized the items as “murderabilia.”
“We don’t allow items that are closely associated with individuals convicted of a violent felony
to be listed on eBay,” the e-mail said. “Such items can be deeply offensive to the families of victims.”
To reach Judy L. Thomas, call 816-234-4334.
Perhaps the greatest tragedy, which I trust God to work through, was that on Monday I spent 5
hours drafting a letter to eBay appealing to their sense of reason, and for an opportunity to work with
them. Mike Bray commented on my letter when I sent him a copy: “Well, you kicked their hind ends,
Dave, albeit in unabridged form.”
The double purpose of the letter was to give AP reporter Roxanne Hegeman a response to
eBay’s policy decision. I finally got the letter finished at emailed to Roxanne at 2:39 pm.
(Remember that 3:05 pm was the time Roxanne’s article was published on Comcast.net. 3:51
pm – Iowa time – was when eBay pulled my auction.)
It was not until I talked to Roxanne about 5 pm that I found out she never received it!
My email server, Iowalink.com, had suffered a spam attack of half a million spams routed
through its server, on Sunday, October 25, the day the auction story broke. A week later they were still
cleaning up the mess. Iowalink guru Dave Payer had told me the previous night he would route the AP
address safely in another way, but I guess it didn’t work.
I am still hopeful that Roxanne has forwarded it to eBay as I had requested, and that eBay will
think about it.
Remember that November 2 was the 150th anniversary of the last day of John Brown’s trial.
Here is my letter:
2:39 pm, Monday, November 2
Sirs,
I am encouraged that although you surely must know where my site is by now, you haven't yet
shut it down. (As of 2:38 pm Monday). (I am not talking about the auction posted by mission.for.life,
which you pulled.)
I hope that is because you have considered the innocence of what I am posting, and the
innocence of my intent explained in the accompanying article, and you are reconsidering your fear that
I am your enemy.
(Friends have wondered if you just haven't found it yet, but I give your Google search gurus
more credit than that, whom you surely had assigned to the task, considering the determination you
expressed to shut it down. Surely you found it within minutes.)
I would be willing to communicate directly, instead of in an open letter through a reporter, but I
don't know how. I gave my contact info to Alina Piacentino last week, who said she would have
someone call me, but I haven't heard back except through reporters. I told Alina I wanted to work as
closely with eBay as possible to post in conformity with your policies in a way that would ruffle the
fewest possible feathers.
According to news stories, your Tuesday statement to reporters referenced your general policy
that "We don’t allow items that promote or glorify...or promote organizations with such views.
We’ll...remove listings...unless they have substantial...political value."
When I read that some time ago, I could not pinpoint the line drawn by those words. You sell
World War II stuff, which "glorifies" our role in it. You do not censor things which honor police, who
exist for their capacity for judicious violence. So it seems to me that your statement cannot be made
sense of, without a common sense appeal to the context of violence.
I hope the article I posted with our Bible has assured you that our project has nothing to do with
"promoting or glorifying violence". It is all about moving judges in abortion prevention trials to stop
censoring the only trial issue, and the only defense, from the hearing of the jury. Does that sound to you
like a fanatical, extremist, violence-glorifying, radical goal?
My assertion that it is routine for juries in such cases to have no meaningful participation in
them should not seem controversial. Lee Thompson, the attorney for George Tiller who persuaded you
to censor me, agrees with me.
Thompson told Rachel Maddow last Monday, October 26, on MSNBC, "They say the
fundraiser is to hire an attorney to advance what's called the Necessity Defense, a justification for some
violent act. But that's been routinely rejected by virtually every court, and it's certainly been rejected by
the Supreme Court of Kansas. ...So I can't imagine that any judge sitting in Wichita Kansas would go
against the Kansas Supreme Court on that issue." (I'll send the video if you want to hear it.)
Neither can I. So, add that knowledge (that it is inconceivable that the judge will allow the jury
to know about the defense) to the fact that there is no other issue in the trial about which the parties
disagree - the defendant does not seriously dispute the charges against what he did - and we see that the
only contested issue of the trial is expected by every lawyer to be decided before the trial begins. In
fact, probably by December 13, when the hearing is scheduled on that issue.
Do you think when a judge classifies the only trial issue as a "question of law" about which the
defendant may not speak to the jury, that a man still has a Constitutional Right to Trial by Jury in
America? Every lawyer will answer "yes" or "it doesn't matter" or "b-b-b-but...". Every average citizen
that I explain it to seems appropriately incredulous. "Of COURSE Scott will have his Trial By Jury",
his ex-wife Lindsey told Alan Colmes after I was on. "This is America!"
I give every detail any layman or lawyer could want, in an entertaining format, in my "Trial By
Jury" video series posted at my own website, www.Saltshaker.US/Scott-Roeder-Resources.htm and on
Youtube, Dailymotion, Metacafe, and Sevenload. I give many reasons why state supreme courts have
erred on this issue.
In other words, the fundamental problem we are trying to correct is the censorship of basic trial
information from American juries; and your decision is whether to, at your level, "censor" our efforts to
correct this censorship.
Our direct goal is not even to exonerate Scott Roeder. Even if our effort succeeds in getting the
defense before the jury, the jury might decide that even though abortion is horrible, it is not horrible
enough to justify "murdering a doctor". That is what the fictitious jury decided in the "Law And Order"
episode October 23. Our direct goal is just uncensoring trial issues - especially fact issues which
rightfully and lawfully belong before juries.
Doesn't it sound to you like this effort has "substantial political value"?
Your policy also bans "Personal belongings of anyone convicted of a violent felony or any work
(such as a book) from which they might profit."
I hope you know no felon will profit from our efforts. At most, some lawyer might.
You also ban "...artwork created by...violent felons."
I didn't know this until recently, and so I must apologize for talking last week about the
drawings by Scott Roeder, which explicitly violate this rule, at least in the view of almost everybody
although he hasn't been convicted.
You ban "Novelty items related to serial killers" Not sure what you mean by "novelty items" but
I hope we agree none of the prolifers I mix with have ever been accused of being a "serial killer". That
is, unless we count the abortionists we know.
You ban two categories that are too subjective for me to imagine how you might rule, so I
would like to negotiate with your representative, item by item, so we do not take anyone by surprise:
"Items glorifying...persons convicted of a violent felony" & "Items promoting violence against an
individual..."
My purpose in negotiations would not be dispute whether physical action to stop abortion is a
"violent felony". I would accept that as a given, for purposes of abiding by eBay rules. My purpose
would be to understand what you count as "glorifying persons" or "promoting violence". I do not see
anything we do as falling into those categories, so I need to understand your thinking, and perhaps
explain ours. For example, would you accuse the Bible of "promoting violence against an individual"
when such individual is slaughtering thousands every year? How about items which honor police, who
exist for the purpose of inflicting violence upon individuals when justified? How about Biblical
analysis relating to actions taken by people? I don't want to be an unreasonable negotiator; I just want
to work things out with as much mutual understanding as possible.
Your Friday statement misrepresents our statements when it says "the organizers of the sale
publically announced their intent to provide the proceeds to an individual who has been charged with
first degree murder." We have no thought of providing Scott Roeder one single penney from anything
we make. We had thought of contributing towards an attorney, and you have to know, if you have
attorneys to go over these things, that attorneys don't hire clients. Not in America.
You continue, "our policy does not permit listings that benefit someone charged with or
convicted of a violent crime.” I hope you do not count fair legal representation as a "benefit" which you
would want any part of depriving anyone of, here in America. In law, the 6th Amendment Right to
Counsel is a "right", not a "benefit" such as one gets from a welfare office. Surely your verbiage refers
to financial payments to the accused, which the Kansas Crime victims compensation law also means.
By the way, did you read what Lee Thompson said about that fund? You need to know not
everything this man says is grounded in law. He bluffed as far as to threaten to seize anything we made
for that fund.
My analysis of that law is below.
Thank you for leaving my site up this long; I hope it is an indication of your willingness to give
me a chance to become a good business partner.
Dave Leach
music@saltshaker.US
515/244-3711
Here is my analysis of the Victim's Compensation law:
Analysis: Kansas 74-7319 (full text below) applies to “publications, broadcast presentations or
live entertainments” who make financial contracts with prisoners to publish their “thoughts, feelings,
opinions or emotions”.
I think it will take a pretty vivid imagination to mistake an eBay auction for either a publication,
or a broadcast presentation, or a live entertainment.
No one has made, or will make, a contract with Scott Roeder to pay him anything.
No one has thought of a way to turn this auction into a foum for Roeder’s “thoughts, feelings,
opinions or emotions”. Unless those ideas which Roeder shares with all Americans are to be interpreted
as “his”, so that everyone who has published a book about the value of American Trial by Jury must
now be ruled to have profited by publishing Roeder’s views, and their assets must now be seized and
paid into the Victim’s Compensation Fund.
More details: One sense of the word “publication” can be “public notification”, but the sense
demanded by the context of this paragraph is some publication offered for sale, since it is about
capturing profits paid by the publisher to the prisoner. Nothing expressing Roeder’s “thoughts, feelings,
opinions or emotions” is contemplated for sale.
The single exception is the three pencil drawings contributed by Roeder to the auction. No other
contemplated auction item is about Roeder or from Roeder. All other items express nothing about
Roeder. Therefore, the auction as a whole does not “deal principally with the crime for which the
person is accused and convicted”, which is a condition for this law to apply.
The law directs the publisher to “pay to the crime victims compensation board all moneys
which would otherwise by the terms of the contract be owed to the person who committed or is alleged
to have committed the crime.” Which of course would be zero, since there is neither written nor oral
contract, and no thought of paying Roeder one penney. All proceeds were envisioned for Roeder’s
attorney, and as every American knows, attorneys are pretty stingy when it comes to paying their
criminal clients. If it happens in Roeder’s case, it will be one for the record books.
This law goes after money paid to prisoners, and not to fundraising to raise legal fees which will
not be paid to prisoners, for a reason. It is fairly common in American society for groups who feel one
of their members is being railroaded in court to raise money for their defense. Examples: a national
home school organization publishing and mailing fundraising letters to defend a family accused of
home schooling. A Christian legal firm publishing and mailing fundraising letters to resist the ACLU’s
attack on senior citizens praying over their meals in a Senior Citizen Center in Texas. The NRA raising
money to rescue raided gun owners. To go after this category of Redress of Grievances would be an
unthinkable, intolerable assault on our freedoms.
The relief available to the family of the crime victim is to get a money judgment in civil court
against the prisoner. Roeder would surely be in a poor position to defend himself, from his prison cell,
against a civil lawsuit, so perhaps a lawsuit this frivolous could succeed. Except that the attorney paid
the money to represent Roeder would be motivated to represent Roeder in resisting it.
It is clear that Kansas 74-7319 comes no nearer authorizing seizure of legal fees than Roe v.
Wade comes to authorizing judges to subsume the Fact Question of the value of unborn human life
under a Law Question which juries must never be told about, leaving juries with no meaningful
participation in abortion prevention trials.
What then is left for a purpose for this threat from Tiller’s attorney?
Well, it is a bit intimidating. A threat of that magnitude normally succeeds in silencing free
speech, and in this case it is aimed additionally at preventing Scott Roeder from acquiring the counsel
of his choice.
74-7319
Chapter 74.--STATE BOARDS, COMMISSIONS AND AUTHORITIES
Article 73.--CRIME VICTIMS COMPENSATION BOARD
74-7319. Moneys payable to accused or convicted person for use of crime in publications,
broadcast presentations or live entertainments, disposition; victims, notice of receipt of funds,
application for award and payment to. (a) Any individual, partnership, corporation or association which
contracts with any person accused or convicted of the commission of a crime in this state, or with a
representative or assignee of such a person, to use the crime committed or alleged to have been
committed by such person or the expression of such person's thoughts, feelings, opinions or emotions
regarding the crime in any book, magazine or other publication or in any movie, radio, television
presentation or live entertainment shall pay to the crime victims compensation board all moneys which
would otherwise by the terms of the contract be owed to the person who committed or is alleged to
have committed the crime, or such person's representatives or assignees, provided, such book,
magazine or other publication, movie, radio or television presentation or live entertainment of any kind
deals principally with the crime for which the person is accused and convicted. If any person is accused
and convicted of the commission of two or more crimes, the crimes shall, for purposes of determining
whether such publication, presentation or entertainment deals principally with the crime for which the
person is accused and convicted, be combined and considered as one crime.
(b) Upon receipt of such funds pursuant to subsection (a), the crime victims compensation
board immediately shall notify the victim of the crime, as defined in K.S.A. 74-7301, and amendments
thereto, of such receipt. Within six months of such notification, the victim may file a claim with the
board for disbursement of such moneys. If proper application is made and the victim can provide the
board evidence of a money judgment within two years of such notification of the victim by the board,
and such judgment is against the person accused or convicted of committing such crime, the board shall
pay such amount, plus accrued interest at the rate imposed on civil money judgments, to the victim.
Such amount shall not exceed the lesser of the amount of the judgment or the amount of the funds
received by the board.
(c) In the event at the time of the notification provided in subsection (b), the applicable
civil statute of limitations on filing a civil action against such person accused of or convicted of the
crime shall have run, the victim shall have six months from such notification to file a notice of claim as
provided in subsection (b) and a civil action against the person accused or convicted of the crime.
(d) For purposes of this section and a civil action for money damages filed hereunder, the
limitations imposed on money damages in K.S.A. 60-1903, K.S.A. 1992 Supp. 60-19a01 and
subsection (e) of K.S.A. 1992 Supp. 60-3701, and amendments thereto, shall not apply.
History: L. 1986, ch. 306, § 2; L. 1989, ch. 239, § 21; L. 1992, ch. 244, § 1; May 21.
eBay public relations contact: alina piacentino 202-778-1295
Here are the last few comments after the November 2 AP story in the Wichita Eagle as of noon
Tuesday:
JLW7440 wrote on 11/2/2009 12:33:37 PM: LEACH....There is no doubt but what you’ve been
reading every posted commentary for several weeks now in this publication regarding Ebay as it relates
to your disgusting intent in promoting an auction. Thankfully, that is a mute issue now. In much of the
past press you’ve gotten over the years, you continually profess to deplore violence, once even
condemned the action of Roeder, but that was only an attempt to save face for your organizations
common cause. Now, contrary to your initial condemnation, you tried to organize the insidious
marketing of smut claming it to have historical value. How shallow, seedy and squalid a person you
are. There is more plastic in your hypocritic, self-righteous purity than can be found in a bushel basket
of Visa cards. You thinking so highly of this clown Roeder, it is truly unfortunate Kansas don’t have the
electric chair when the eventual outcome for this cold-blooded, calculated murderer is administered and
you would not be sitting in his lap when the switch is pulled!
tpgisgay wrote on 11/2/2009 12:50:55 PM: So somebody can post that Scott Roeders' mom
should have had an abortion (not that I disagree), but my link, as well as others, to the items being sold
are considered "abusive"?
JLW7440 wrote on 11/2/2009 1:47:53 PM:
I'd bet about now Roeder's mother wishes birth control was retro-active as do many, many other
people.Calvin43 wrote on 11/2/2009 4:41:32 PM: Remember: There was once a time when John
Brown of Osawatomie was denounced as a murder and madman. He was hung for inciting rebellion
against a government that sanctioned slavery. Today, John Brown is honored and revered as a soldier of
freedom for those unable to defend themselves. Who knows what tomorrow will bring? The day may
not be far distant when today's opponents of abortion are equally honored and revered as the defenders
of young life over death.
Jimpac wrote on 11/2/2009 9:50:56 PM: In 1973 the price of an human life in the USA was
established to be $43.00
Roe VS Wade
Guess What!!!
Your worth much less than that if the Obama Care pays the bill!
PRO / or NO?
pub17 wrote on 11/3/2009 8:35:37 AM: Oh, too bad, sorry Jimpac, even the Bible doesn't say a
fetus is a "human life."
Are you really sure that a fetus is a baby?
DaveLeach wrote on 11/3/2009 10:31:21 AM: Luke 1:41 says when John the Baptist had been
in the womb only 6 months, he heard the voice of Jesus’ mother and leaped for joy. This is something
which a tumor cannot do. (Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of
Mary, the babe leaped in her womb...)
Psalm 139:13-16 describes how God was watching you and me growing in the womb, back
before our bodies even had arms or legs. (Psalms 139:16 but with your own eyes you saw my body
being formed.)
Jeremiah 1:5 says God offers each of us a purpose for life, at least by the moment of conception,
before our bodies begin forming. (Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and
before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the
nations.)
DaveLeach wrote on 11/3/2009 10:32:06 AM: Jeremiah 19:5 says a parent murdering her own
baby is so horrible it never even entered God’s mind! (Jeremiah 19:5 They have built also the high
places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor
spake it, neither came it into my mind:) Proverbs 24:10-12 shows God expects us to rescue those
being led away to slaughter. Only government authorized murderers operate openly enough for the
public to intervene. (Proverbs 24:11 Don’t hesitate to rescue someone who is about to be executed
unjustly.) Also Leviticus 19:26 You must not stand idly by when your neighbor’s life is at stake (NET,
NLT)
DaveLeach wrote on 11/3/2009 12:13:58 PM: By the way, regarding JLW7440's [so much fun
to be rude when you are anonymous!] charge that I once condemned Roeder's action:
I saw what KSHABBY-TV did to my 40 minute taped interview. Here's what the editors did: I was
explaining how the jury might reason, and why the jury, even if given the defense, might not
necessarily acquit, but that I expected ultimate victory if the defense could be pried from the judge's
tight grip. I said "The jury might decide that ABORTION IS TERRIBLE, BUT SO IS SHOOTING AN
ABORTIONIST. But even if that is the outcome, if the Necessity Defense gets to the jury, the door to
its availability in future doorblocking cases will be wide open, and abortion will end." What an
amazing, creative use of video editing equipment, to extract that capitalized portion to make me appear
to condemn the very action for which I am raising money to exonerate!
DaveLeach wrote on 11/3/2009 12:18:18 PM:
The really surprising thing about all this is that remember years ago, when the media always
made us out to be more fanatic than we were, by reporting the nubbins of our remarkable positions
without reporting the Scriptures or the pictures that justified our positions? Well, now I have caught
them half a dozen times now making me look LESS fanatic than I really am. The Des Moines editors
on Channel 13 did something similar. Are they trying, this time, to make us appear NORMAL? What's
up with that?
Not that we can ever appear normal, before our concern about censored defenses and trial issues
in court is fully explained. I hope that will come soon.
Saltshaker.US/Scott-Roeder-Resources.htm
Defense seeks order on anti-abortion juror strikes
Defense seeks order on anti-abortion juror strikes
By ROXANA HEGEMANAssociated Press Writer
Lawyers for the man accused of killing of abortion provider George Tiller have asked a judge for an order prohibiting prosecutors from discriminating against potential jurors based on their religious or anti-abortion beliefs.
The court filing, made public Thursday, offered the first glimpse of the legal strategy being developed by Scott Roeder's court-appointed defense team. Sedgwick County District Judge Warren Wilbert scheduled a hearing on the defense motion for Dec. 9.
Roeder is accused of shooting Tiller on May 31 while the doctor was ushering for Sunday morning services at his Wichita church. He is scheduled for trial Jan. 11 on charges of first-degree murder and aggravated assault.
"The abortion issue is so contentious, that by eliminating pro-life jury panelists impartiality is compromised," attorney Mark Rudy wrote. "It is the contemplation of a heated deliberation, by jurors of all views, including those who are pro-life, that will insure impartial jurors."
Prosecutors will respond to the motion at the December hearing, said Georgia Cole, spokeswoman for the Sedgwick County district attorney's office.
In his motion, Rudy argued that peremptory strikes during jury selection based on a person's beliefs or actions against abortion violate the First Amendment because they discriminate against a religious point of view.
Rudy also argued excluding anti-abortion jurors would violate the Constitution's equal protection clause, deprive Roeder of due process and impede the selection of an impartial jury.
In a phone call Thursday from the Sedgwick County jail, Roeder told The Associated Press he is "very satisfied" with his public defenders, pleased they filed motion and thought it was well thought out.
"It seems like a plausible move ... just something that hopefully would not bar anyone from being on the jury because of the fact that they are pro-life," he said.
Roeder said he can't afford to hire his own attorney, but there are "other possibilities in the works" to find a lawyer who will take his case for free.
Some supporters are still trying to raise money for his defense after eBay said Tuesday it would block a planned auction of anti-abortion memorabilia because it violates the company's policy on offensive materials.
Abortion opponents want to hire an attorney who would present a justifiable homicide, or so-called affirmative action defense, arguing the killing was justified to protect unborn children. They hope to appeal Roeder's case to the U.S. Supreme Court as part of an effort to overturn Roe v. Wade, which legalized abortion in the U.S.
Auction organizer Regina Dinwiddie said her attorney wrote eBay a letter telling the company that if it takes down the auction listings it would be discriminating against her and using unfair commercial practices. The online auction company did not respond to telephone and e-mail messages seeking comment Thursday.
Dave Leach, an abortion opponent from Des Moines, Iowa, said Thursday the group is also trying to find other online auctions or buy online auction software in case it can't use eBay.
Roeder said he was very excited to hear the auction might happen after all.
The auction has been controversial because it includes an underground publication for anti-abortion militants that describes ways to shut down clinics and a cookbook compiled by Shelley Shannon, the Oregon woman who shot and wounded Tiller in 1993 and was later convicted in a series of abortion clinic arsons and bombings.
Lee Thompson, the attorney representing Tiller's family, said he also has written eBay, asking it to block the auction.
"It is a reprehensible attempt to glorify violence," Thompson said in a phone interview. "These are the same people whose publications generated the climate of hatred that led to Dr. Tiller's murder in the first place."
He contended proceeds from such a sale should be paid to the Kansas crime victims compensation board as they would come under a state law designed to prevent those charged with crimes from profiting from them.
© 2009 Wichita Eagle and wire service sources. All Rights Reserved. http://www.kansas.com
10/29/09
EBay refuses benefit auction for Roeder By JUDY L. THOMAS The Kansas City Star
EBay refuses benefit auction for Roeder
By JUDY L. THOMAS
The Kansas City Star
An eBay auction planned by abortion opponents to raise money for the man accused of killing Wichita abortion doctor George Tiller will not be permitted, company officials said Tuesday.“Based on the details we know about the anticipated listings, we believe these would violate our policy regarding offensive material,” the company said in a statement to The Kansas City Star. “EBay will not permit the items in question to be posted to the eBay site, and they will be removed if they are posted.”
The announcement came the same day that Tiller’s family implored eBay to prevent the auction.
“These materials contain hate messages, glorify violence against abortion doctors who provide constitutionally protected medical services, and instruct on means of violence, including bombing, of abortion clinics,” said Lee Thompson, an attorney for the Tiller family, in a letter sent to eBay on Tuesday and approved by Tiller’s widow, Jeanne Tiller.
“We urge you to deny access to the resources of eBay for this reprehensible and vile ‘auction.’ ”
The auction was intended to raise money for the defense of Scott Roeder, who is charged with first-degree murder in Tiller’s death and is scheduled to go on trial in January. Currently, Roeder is being represented by public defenders.
Roeder’s supporters are encouraging him to use a “necessity defense,” saying that Tiller’s killing on May 31 was an act of justifiable homicide. Other anti-abortion activists charged with violent crimes have tried to use such a defense, but with little success.
Those working on the fundraiser said banning the auction was a violation of their rights.
“They’re not only chilling the First Amendment of the Constitution, they’re raping the whole Constitution,” said Regina Dinwiddie, a Kansas City abortion opponent and friend of Roeder.
She said the move wouldn’t stop those who are trying to help Roeder.
“We have other plans that I’m not at the discretion to say right now,” she said. “This is money for Scott Roeder so he can have a true defense. They’re trying to shoot down the truth of what went on behind Tiller’s closed doors and fenced gates, but it’s not going to work.”
The controversy arose after an article in Sunday’s Star about the auction. Items being donated included an Army of God manual, a prison cookbook compiled by a woman doing time for abortion clinic bombings and arsons, and several autographed drawings submitted by Roeder.
One drawing was of David and Goliath that depicted David holding the head of Goliath and the name “Tiller” on Goliath’s forehead. The words “child-murdering industry” were written on the corpse.
Dave Leach, an Iowa abortion opponent who was organizing the auction, planned to launch it Sunday. He was donating a reprint of an Army of God manual, an underground publication that describes dozens of ways to shut down abortion clinics, including bombing. Leach, who published the manual in 1996 in his magazine, Prayer and Action News, said he would cover the pages containing bomb recipes.
The prison recipes were being donated by Shelley Shannon, the Oregon woman who shot and wounded Tiller in 1993 and later was convicted in a series of abortion clinic arsons and bombings.
Dinwiddie, who made headlines in 1995 when a federal judge ordered her to stop using a bullhorn within 500 feet of abortion clinics, planned to donate an autographed bullhorn similar to those she used when protesting.
Roeder’s ex-wife, Lindsey Roeder, said she was thrilled the auction was being rejected. She said she contacted eBay on Monday to voice her concerns.
“I believe that this auction could incite more violence on abortion clinics and doctors,” she wrote in an e-mail to eBay. “I do not believe that canceling this auction will in any way hinder Scott’s right to an adequate defense, as he has a good team of public defenders.”
In his letter to eBay, Thompson said that any proceeds of the auction should go to the Kansas Crime Victims Compensation Board. Such proceeds, he said, would come under the provision of the Son of Sam law in Kansas, which was designed to keep those charged with crimes from profiting from their actions.
It its statement, eBay said, “we do not allow items that encourage, promote, facilitate or instruct others to engage in illegal activity and will not be a platform for those who promote violence toward others.”
Leach said eBay’s policy was ambiguous.
“They won’t allow anything that glorifies violence, they say. Wasn’t World War II a bit violent?” he said. “Doesn’t eBay do a brisk business in books and artifacts that glorify the U.S. role in it? Isn’t the Bible sold on eBay? I can’t even imagine how eBay could rewrite its policy in a way that targets us without targeting a huge slice of its customers.”
Inside
Mike Hendricks: Supporters see Scott Roeder as a modern John Brown | A4
Mike Hendricks: Supporters see Scott Roeder as a modern John Brown | A4
To reach Judy L. Thomas, call 816-234-4334 or send e-mail to jthomas@kcstar.com.
© 2009 Kansas City Star and wire service sources. All Rights Reserved. http://www.kansascity.com
Comments:
- JayDubIII wrote on 10/28/2009 5:05:42 AM:
-
flaps10 wrote on 10/28/2009 6:44:15 AM:Gosh, who wouldn't want an autographed Regina Dinwiddie bullhorn?
- mahtigwess wrote on 10/28/2009 6:46:10 AM:
“They’re not only chilling the First Amendment of the Constitution, they’re raping the whole Constitution,” said Regina Dinwiddie, a Kansas City abortion opponent and friend of Roeder.
Yes, but will it be able to get an abortion if the rape results in pregnancy? - Animal wrote on 10/28/2009 6:49:54 AM:
If you need to reach out to your fellow believers for money it says volumes. Where are his friends and why won't they put up their houses, monies of their own or maybe their first born? Apparently Roeder does not have enough behind him to help. Could it be now that most in the cause would like to forget his name and what he did.
-
- RxBxtr wrote on 10/28/2009 7:19:57 AM:
Congrats to eBay for refusing this auction. To equate an offer of books discussing the history of World War II with selling materials that advocate violence and support the illegal murder of doctors is ludicrous. It's reassuring to know this group of wackos won't have the forum of eBay to promote their message of violence. And I'd suggest Regina Dinwiddie take another read of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Nowhere in those documents does it say a private business is obligated to allow nutcases like her to exercise their freedom of speech on its forum.
- bugler wrote on 10/28/2009 7:33:17 AM:
Dear Dimwitted, I am mean dinwiddle. Learn what the constitution says before you go wrapping yourself up in its protections. The bill of rights prevents the government from infringing on your rights. It does not determine what a private company can do in regards to its rights.
- Singapore_Royals_Fan wrote on 10/28/2009 7:33:39 AM:
I am so glad I moved away from Kansas, what a bunch of lunatics. No different and NO better than Al Qaeda...
- crs wrote on 10/28/2009 7:33:42 AM:
So are they gonna protest and bomb ebay now until they get their way?
- Singapore_Royals_Fan wrote on 10/28/2009 7:39:38 AM:
Unfortunately they are too cowardly to suicide bomb....
-
-
AZZOne wrote on 10/28/2009 7:42:23 AM:Poor delusional Regina. Good for eBay for refusing her and her ilk to manipulate private enterprise.
- tketcher wrote on 10/28/2009 7:43:45 AM:
I would donate to a fund that would put this murdering fanatic's execution on National TV. From the Article: The prison recipes were being donated by Shelley Shannon, the Oregon woman who shot and wounded Tiller in 1993 and later was convicted in a series of abortion clinic arsons and bombings. This is another one of these Murderers that should be on Death Row. She was sentenced to 11 years in prison. Until one of these Morons gets capped, These Cowards will continue to breed. WWJD ? These Coward hide behind Religion for their own desires. Taliban/Abortion Protestors. They are all the same. Take your twisted religious views and move to IRAN. You would be right at home.
- hajkar wrote on 10/28/2009 7:47:09 AM:
Singapore_Royals_Fan wrote:
"I am so glad I moved away from Kansas, what a bunch of lunatics. No different and NO better than Al Qaeda..."
The man organizing this aborted auction is not from Kansas. - thurss wrote on 10/28/2009 8:13:20 AM:
“They’re not only chilling the First Amendment of the Constitution, they’re raping the whole Constitution,” said Regina Dinwiddie, a Kansas City abortion opponent and friend of Roeder.
This statement shows how little the radical pro-lifers know the constitution (I use radical so i am NOT lumping all pro-lifers together)
The constitution allows you to express your opinions not force them on other people. The law states abortion is legal. You have to deal with it. To force another business to follow an anti-abortion ideology is specifically what the constitution PROTECTS.
So E-bay does not have to give you a reason. NO is all they have to say.
Also there is a major difference in a historical reference on WWII and a how to book for abortion fighters.
Read another book you nut jobs!!! -
- ajm wrote on 10/28/2009 8:40:51 AM:
Dave Leach,Regina Dinwiddie - sell your homes, cars and if lucky go bankrupt in the process. Good for EBay saying no to radical pro-lifers.
-
KCJB wrote on 10/28/2009 9:46:49 AM:WTG Ebay!
- jayhawk6 wrote on 10/28/2009 10:02:42 AM:
Yeah, obsessive types like Dinwiddie lose any common sense they might have had when it comes to setbacks for their cause.
ebay has no obligation to accept their items for sale, nor does the refusal deny her freedom of speech.
She should be aware of the maxim that when one lies down dog, (s)he gets up with fleas.
Scott Roeder appears to be a bit demented and murdered somebody at a church service. If she doesn't mind being tarred with that brush, then she should carry on.
But rather than carrying posters depicting fetuses or using a bullhorn to disturb the peace, her energy might be put to better use promoting effective methods of birth control to avoid unexpected or unwanted pregnancies in the first place. - superacidjax wrote on 10/28/2009 10:33:26 AM:
You also can't sell Nazi stuff on eBay or artwork from death row prisoners.. eBay is being consistent and these terrorists should not be allowed to raise money. If Osama wanted to sell terrorist manuals on eBay to raise legal defense money for Gitmo detainees, that would be prohibited as well. eBay has no obligation to allow terrorist organizations to sell things on their site. After all, ebay is not a government organization and they have no obligation to do anything for anyone. No one has a "right" to sell things on ebay any more than anyone has a "right" to have a story printed in the Star.
- Chapeau wrote on 10/28/2009 10:48:15 AM:
This fruit-loop, right-wing, conservative, cross burning, white sheet wearing, KKK, Nazi book burning wacko should be hung today! And, very slowly...
I will not pray for his soul, because he sold it to the Devil who awaits him to burn in Hell for ever. - iknowstuff2 wrote on 10/28/2009 10:56:22 AM:
Odd how this clown walks into a place of worship and murders a man in cold blood then his "supporters" start leaning (incorrectly) on the US constitution as a basis to claim somebody civil rights are being violated. Opinion about whether or not abortion is right or wrong is just that, opinion. But the FACT is today it is legal and murdering a man with a gun is illegal. Those are facts. Like'em or not those are facts as it stands today. So I'd be interested in hearing this lady's comments about Tiller's act relative to the US constitution.
- ScoJo77 wrote on 10/28/2009 10:58:12 AM:
Ebay has nothing to do with "freedom of speech". They are a private corporation. Nobody's getting "arrested" or "oppressed". You are free to say whatever wackjob thing you want without fear of prosecution. That doesn't mean ebay has to let you use their servers to say it. Duh.
- thebaboon9 wrote on 10/28/2009 11:08:26 AM:
Good for Ebay, leave the scum in a cage where he belongs.
- thurss wrote on 10/28/2009 11:31:40 AM:
buffman316 When has EBay raised money for abortions or abortion clinics ? How are they hate speech ? When have they encouraged to hurt or kill people ?
They are private business and do not have to put up with any of the BS. It is thier constitutional right (to quote some people)
Quit trying to stretch the truth to fit your ideology. - countofcork wrote on 10/28/2009 11:50:23 AM:
buffman316 isn't there something called "Corporate America" in this country and the 1st Amendment doesn't apply to them. They have a right to refuse any customer they wish. Or perhaps you have not seen the signs that say "No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service" Get real you dimwit
- teresant wrote on 10/28/2009 11:52:01 AM:
If people would mind their own business, abortion wouldn't be an issue. How about using your anger to help women in need instead of spreading hate to future generations?
- JayDubIII wrote on 10/28/2009 12:22:55 PM:
Have you ever had one of those day when you get up to check out the news and you read something like this and you go around all day with this big ear to ear grin knowing Regina and her band of zealots has been denied this attempted fiasco.
Even better is reading all the whining, bitching and moaning about the Constitution, free speech etc blah blah blah.
God don't you love living in America. - C_B wrote on 10/28/2009 12:23:44 PM:
EBay is actually a public company but your point still remains valid, ScoJo77.
The First Amendment says that "CONGRESS shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech." "Congress" today means "government" (fed, state, & local), which in turn, means an infringement on the freedom of speech MUST involve some governmental action. Anyone who claims this circumstance constitutes a violation of one's freedom of speech most likely has never actually read the First Amendment. I would love to hear the legal argument purporting to establish that EBay (a non-governmental private actor) and its adherence to its well-established corporate policies of denying certain material constitutes a "governmental action."
Before invoking the Constitution to save you from all you perceive as unjust, try reading it. -
- JayDubIII wrote on 10/28/2009 12:28:43 PM:
ScoJo77. Good point. The KC Star gives these fringe lunatics all the free press them want to spew their hate and venom.
- tgrowney wrote on 10/28/2009 12:30:10 PM:
The way I see it, they are both killers. One guy killed one person, the other killed thousands. End of story
- Fenris wrote on 10/28/2009 12:48:43 PM:
You might see them both as killers, but one way is legal and the other way is illegal. End of story
- rgh wrote on 10/28/2009 12:50:22 PM:
I'm glad to hear e-bay did the right thing. I'm not advocating abortion, but I've also walked in those shoes and chose life as a teenager. I am "pro-choice" simply because I made that decision and would have been the one to have lived with it. The vast majority of Christians who are pro life are also caring individuals who will speak out, but do so rationally and not radically.
The radical pro life people like Roeder who chose to murder and innocent person as he attended a place of worship with his family inside the church will face his maker. Why would he even need funds? He has pro life legal support as it is and they won't charge him for doing what they probably felt was the right thing to do. - Animal wrote on 10/28/2009 12:51:41 PM:
His looks in court along with his mannerisms are showing a man that is more than capable of lashing out. Not in any form but that of anger and vengence. He has put himself in a no win situation as he has no defense for his actions that are seriously worth consideration. And Dinwiddie, needs a bullhorn for the rason she is talking out of her cornhole anyway.
- GoBlue wrote on 10/28/2009 1:14:34 PM:
Need money for his defense? What defense?! He walked into a church with hundreds of witnesses, and shot a man in the head, point blank range. What the f--- is his defense? He murdered - in cold-blood - a man performing LEGAL and CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED abortions?!
Skip the waste in tax-payer money, lets have the hanging tomorrow - agf61 wrote on 10/28/2009 1:43:59 PM:
ebay can let people sell what they want, and refuse to let people sell what they don't want, as long as they don't violate existing laws while doing it. The rest is just noise.
- mileswms wrote on 10/28/2009 2:14:58 PM:
Wonder if they would accept an auction the help the prosecution and if so where do we donate items?
- jmgage2146 wrote on 10/28/2009 2:18:50 PM:
Glad to see the voice of reason prevailing on this thread. Maybe the religious, single-issue holier-than-thou zealots are starting to get the message that that way of thinking (anit-abortion extremism) is socially and legally unacceptable and intolerable. Their supporters seem to be becoming more and more diminished as time goes on.
-
Vegas2112 wrote on 10/28/2009 3:28:26 PM:tgrowney wrote:
The way I see it, they are both killers. One guy killed one person, the other killed thousands. End of story
=================================================
Your story is not based in reality.
The "way you see it," reflects your subjective and biased opinion. It has nothing to do with the rule of law.
And since we live in a country ruled by law, what we have here is an assassin in Roeder, and an individual who was assassinated, for performing a legal medical procedure.
You can call it "killing babies," "killing children," etc. It doesn't change the fact that you are on the wrong side of the law.
Can we all assume that you contribute your time and resources to helping disadvantaged children -- you know, the kind that have actually been born? - GoBlue wrote on 10/28/2009 6:08:09 PM:
'Can we all assume that you contribute your time and resources to helping disadvantaged children -- you know, the kind that have actually been born?'
Simply love that line!
I have asked many pro-lifers if they had saved any babies from abortion by way of adoption. Still waiting on a yes response. - DaveLeach wrote on 10/28/2009 10:28:57 PM:
If God loves all, why is it hard to grasp why Bible verses like Pro 24:10-12 would call us to rescue those being unjustly slaughtered? How can the innocent live, unless those who murder them are stopped? Should we have no police? No courts? No laws?
Laws mean to protect good and restrain evil. It would be absurd for any law to expressly intend great harm. Mark 3:4. In situations where enforcement of the letter of a law would cause harm, the spirit of the law would be violated by enforcement, which is suspended by the Necessity Defense.
This is Scott Roeder's defense. It would be absurd to interpret Roe v. Wade as expressly intending genocide. Yet Roe said "the judiciary...is not in a position to speculate" on whether the millions of unborn slain at its direction are human beings. Roe said if triers of fact determine that they are, Roe should "collapse".
Lower courts violate Roe by deciding the fact question which Roe said no judge is qualified to decide. (Cont'd) - DaveLeach wrote on 10/28/2009 10:31:00 PM:
(Cont'd from previous post) ... the judges say they can't recognize abortion as harming human beings because it is legal. Besides that, judges decide this fact question by themselves, before the trial begins, and order defendants not to say a word about their defense, and the only contested trial issue, to the jury, even though they tell juries THEY are judges of the facts.
Nothing can be more illegal than what courts have done all these years to keep abortion "legal".
Our goal is an end to violence against abortionists, and against babies, through restoring the Constitutional Right to Trial by Jury, even in abortion prevention cases.
Abortionist attorney Lee Thompson's successful intimidation of eBay is aimed at denying Roeder access to the counsel of his choice. - GoBlue wrote on 10/28/2009 10:44:30 PM:
David, your sorry posts illuminates why I am so very thankful our fore fathers were smart enough to write separation of church and state into our Constitution.
Nothing more illegal than keep abortion legal? Wow!! Simply wow!!
You know what's illegal -morally and by the laws of our land? Walking into a church (oh the irony) and shooting a man in his head at point blank range! THAT is illegal! THAT is cold-blooded murder! And THAT should warrant the death penalty!
I don't believe in your church, I in fact, MORALLY OPPOSE IT!!! However, that does not give me the right to walk into it and kill its congregation. THAT would be illegal!! You sick scum - Vegas2112 wrote on 10/28/2009 10:48:46 PM:
Dave Leach:
If you want to establish your own version of the Taliban, you may do so in another country.
Your goal to end violence on "babies", should be directed to the poor, not to a clump of cells. - GoBlue wrote on 10/28/2009 11:05:06 PM:
Yeah, Vegas, think we both can guarantee that David hasn't saved a baby from abortion through adoption, or taking care of any disadvantaged children.
- GoBlue wrote on 10/28/2009 11:07:29 PM:
meant to add.....
he's just too busy professing hate and encouraging terrorist actions with-in our own Country - ekhym wrote on 10/28/2009 11:13:37 PM:
Dimwittie needs to go back and restudy her civics. This is a private company. The First Amendment Free Speech protections only apply to governments. Companies can and do deny access to voices and speech they find offensive and are well within their rights to do so.
- agf61 wrote on 10/29/2009 1:37:57 AM:
Some people think war is immoral. Doesn't mean they get to murder all the soldiers in order to stop war.
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)
Posts
Ebay taking down an auction is not a "violation of the first amendment". The constitution is about laws, not private business policies...ebay's not some public forum. Your 1st amendment right to say whatever you want (as long as you're not conducting yourself in a way that infringes on others' rights) without going to jail for it, is 100% intact. But if eBay doesn't want it, that's their right.
Think of it this way: Would you say the same thing if the local AMC theater refused to run your home movies?
But what do you expect, these people think EXACTLY like terrorists. They believe their personal self-righteous agenda is backed up by God and they have the right to kill people - and ironically because they believe their victims are killers themselves. Name ONE thing that separates the two ideologies. You can't. They're NUTS.